2D Sprites or 3D Models? [poll added]

[gool]

Which brings me back to a point I previouslly made, considering that Fargo said that there would be modding tools, I cant see anything other option but 3D.

The only people who would have problems modding a 2D game are 3D modellers.

[Mort2]

In 3D if you want to add a new weapon, armour etc all you need todo is model it and add it. In 2D, it means you need to draw hundreds of sprites for everyone. so the way I see it, 3D is really a given or maybe you know any 2D game with characters/weapons/armor/etc that has a modding tool?

[Smejki]

Which brings me back to a point I previouslly made, considering that Fargo said that there would be modding tools, I cant see anything other option but 3D.

The only people who would have problems modding a 2D game are 3D modellers.

or rather people who dislike ineffectivity

[Gizmo]

In 3D if you want to add a new weapon, armour etc all you need todo is model it and add it. In 2D, it means you need to draw hundreds of sprites for everyone. so the way I see it, 3D is really a given or maybe you know any 2D game with characters/weapons/armor/etc that has a modding tool?

Well... if the engine supports overwriting one sprite on top of another (How the Infinity engine seems to work), then it could be the case that (for human characters) all you would have to do is draw (or render from 3D) the weapon sprite itself, as it would appear in the figure's hands from each angle. ~Still a pain, but not nearly so bad as duplicating it on all character sprites.

Unless the modders are budding 2D animators that the can't get enough fun from hand animating character sprites, I doubt we'd see many complete weapon or armor mods unless it was 3D.

The only people who would have problems modding a 2D game are 3D modellers.

How so?

* I would think that most 3D modelers that were interested and serious about it, would make short work of replicating any 2D figure in the game as a 3D mesh model and hence make short work of churning out all of the required 2D sprites needed for their mod.

The real problem could likely be the download size of any significant mod ~if 2D. Especially if the sprites were all hi-res to accommodate the highest screen settings; doubly so if the game used separate sets instead of dynamically resizing for lower screen settings. (And you don't want the game to scale up the sprites ~only to scale down).

3D is better for modding ~even if you only consider the download sizes of user mods. A 3D mesh and texture map would usually be much smaller than a large sprite set (I would think). I would say though, that 2D would be more accessible to modders that cannot (yet) or do not want to use a 3d modeling program for the art; they could easily animate the frames in GIMP or Photoshop.

[Mort2]

In 3D if you want to add a new weapon, armour etc all you need todo is model it and add it. In 2D, it means you need to draw hundreds of sprites for everyone. so the way I see it, 3D is really a given or maybe you know any 2D game with characters/weapons/armor/etc that has a modding tool?

Well... if the engine supports overwriting one sprite on top of another (How the Infinity engine seems to work), then it could be the case that (for human characters) all you would have to do is draw (or render from 3D) the weapon sprite itself, as it would appear in the figure's hands from each angle. ~Still a pain, but not nearly so bad as duplicating it on all character sprites.

@Gizmo, you would also need to align it for each character in the game and draw sprites for their every stance/action (stand,run,take out, fire, reload etc, in all directions...)

[Gizmo]

@Gizmo, you would also need to align it for each character in the game and draw sprites for their every stance/action (stand,run,take out, fire, reload etc, in all directions...)

Yes. Unless all of the humans are the same base male & female sprite; and the hands (intentionally) line up for weapon art; then you could do one weapon set for all, and one armor set for each ~unless those too are made to line up (enough). I did mean that one would need an overlay set for every action/pose.

They could provide a blank weapon template with the hands marked... but it would always be a pain, regardless.

[Mort2]

But that would take all the magic of 2D pixel art... this seems like the worst option of both worlds.

[Gizmo]

But wouldnt that take all the magic of 2D pixel art?

What magic?

(Or in the case of weapon mods... what benefit is there from a hand drawn uzi over a 3D modeled uzi?)

[gool]

In 3D if you want to add a new weapon, armour etc all you need todo is model it and add it. In 2D, it means you need to draw hundreds of sprites for everyone. so the way I see it, 3D is really a given or maybe you know any 2D game with characters/weapons/armor/etc that has a modding tool?

Hm. Bard's Tale Construction Kit, Forgotten Realms: Unlimited Adventure, Blades of Exile/Avernum, Realmz, Fallout 2. Fan work has given us tools for Ultima 7, Wizardry 6 - 8, all the Infinity Engine games. I'm sure I'm missing hundreds.

And, I'm not interested in the content that can be produced by the community, but the content that can be produced by inXile.

[Mort2]

@Gizmo, Even though I support 3D models, I have no doubt that pixel art has more style and magic to it(Ignoring its limitation) and I have yet to see even AAA games getting anywhere close to a good pixel art.

@gool, None of your examples has isometric view or anything that I would suggest to use 3D in the first place. Fo2 tool, is not really a modding tool, it only allows to place existing assets and the new version use 3d models. Also I think that one of us is going to be EXTREMELY surprised by how W2 will look.

[Elerond]

And, I'm not interested in the content that can be produced by the community, but the content that can be produced by inXile.

If content creation is easy to fans, then it is even easier to production team.

[gool]

@gool, None of your examples has isometric view or anything that I would suggest to use 3D in the first place. Fo2 tool, is not really a modding tool, it only allows to place existing assets and the new version use 3d models. Also I think that one of us is going to be EXTREMELY surprised by how W2 will look.

You didn't say anything about isometric.

If the outcome is decided, what is the point of this discussion? Why is this forum even here? Surely inXile would have out and said "the game is going to be 3d 'cause it's easy, lol." if that were the case. I'm fully aware that most people are in support of 3D (the evidence is, after all, at the top of the page.) My preference is for a visual representation closer to the original, and hence I am arguing for it. You know? The kind of game that isn't made anymore? What I thought this Kickstarter was about?

By the way, Ultima 7 was as "isometric" as Fallout was.

[Mort2]

You didn't say anything about isometric.

You are right, my bad.

If the outcome is decided, what is the point of this discussion? Why is this forum even here?

We are here to give feedback on some issues. However, you must realise that they had some design docs way before they went to the kickstarter and very unlikely to deviate far from their original design and artistic intent, also some decision will be based on real life constrains. For example engine choice and IMO this.

[MDF_MadDogFargo]

IMO this poll is absurd. Asking to decide about 2D or 3D visuals without knowing the contents of the visuals is like asking to decide on what kind of menu we want to order our food, a 2D menu or a 3D menu, but you don't know if the food is going to be a fast food happy meal or a three course dinner. I want to have the three course dinner and I don't care what the menu looks like. I want good visuals for Wasteland 2. IMO there is more versatility of presentation available in 2D than in 3D. For instance, most 3D games have a fixed POV - first person or isometric. 2D otoh can have multiple POVs on a scene or change POVs between scenes. 2D can do the isometric and the first-person and other perspectives too.

[dmazz]

Given Wasteland's extreme top down view (like GTA1-2) for world travel we'll definitely be getting 2D. Modding should be easy in 2D for the backgrounds, if Inxile reuses art assets in the game. Character's will be in 3D cause animation is costly in 2D. That one isn't a big deal due to the 3D characters being so small.

Also think how lame 3D isometric games look, that's a direct deficiency of 3D lacking art 'style' ability. Due to the lack of budget and development time Wasteland 2 will be all about style, it can't compete with the AAA 3D games who go for realism.

Also has anyone seen some of the new 2D games now? Incredible style and expression through graphics. If Inxile takes the path of 2D the results could be incredible. But going 3D would only amount to a half decent looking game at best.

[Gizmo]

@Gizmo, Even though I support 3D models, I have no doubt that pixel art has more style and magic to it(Ignoring its limitation) and I have yet to see even AAA games getting anywhere close to a good pixel art.

http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/disciples-iii-renaissance/screenshots
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozrsvD4sBjU

[MDF_MadDogFargo]

Given Wasteland's extreme top down view (like GTA1-2) for world travel we'll definitely be getting 2D. Modding should be easy in 2D for the backgrounds, if Inxile reuses art assets in the game. Character's will be in 3D cause animation is costly in 2D. That one isn't a big deal due to the 3D characters being so small.

I like GTA 1/2's view of the world! I have something like that in mind when I imagine a graphical Wasteland.

But I don't think we need 3D characters necessarily. I believe WL2 could be made like WL1 without animating between the moves. It's a turn-based game; but we are so used to real-time games most of us don't think about simply leaving the picture still between moves. A 3d model might still be useful though, to attach detailed, customized party gear, if the game gives you that option, and IMO I want to see my characters in the pictures, not generic models.

WL has a still picture, but on the other hand, it has those simple gif animations too. I wonder what is possible with more granular gif animations, to create the impression of life in a picture, like WL portraits but on a larger (higher resolution) scale.

Also think how lame 3D isometric games look, that's a direct deficiency of 3D lacking art 'style' ability. Due to the lack of budget and development time Wasteland 2 will be all about style, it can't compete with the AAA 3D games who go for realism.

Also has anyone seen some of the new 2D games now? Incredible style and expression through graphics. If Inxile takes the path of 2D the results could be incredible. But going 3D would only amount to a half decent looking game at best.

Do you mean these games: Aldorlea Games (http://www.aldorlea.org), Amaranth Games (http://www.amaranthia.com), and Hanako Games (http://www.hanakogames.com/rpgs.shtml? That new game at Aldorlea, "The Book of Legends", looks cool.

[dmazz]

Disciples 3 was in development for more than 4 years. And from an isometric viewpoint is arguably less good looking than it's 2D predecessor.

As an example of 2D visual design, I was thinking more along dishwaseher vampire smile. http://au.gamespot.com/the-dishwasher-v ... w-6307251/ A game that is also low budget a, $10 dlc on xbox.

But those games work too, and are also low budget. 2D art simply gives artists alot more control about how the final product will look ingame. I would like an example of a 3D game that looks great from a fixed camera. The only ones I can find, but that feature subpar terrain anyway, are Starcraft II and Warhammer Dawn of War II, both AAA games.

[krellen]

That new game at Aldorlea, "The Book of Legends", looks cool.

I just finished the trial. That might have to be my next game purchase.

[Gizmo]

Disciples 3 was in development for more than 4 years. And from an isometric viewpoint is arguably less good looking than it's 2D predecessor.

Oh I agree completely ~but that does not mean that it's not close to good pixel art ~and it certainly has good pixel art as part of it ~though I'm all but certain that most of the 2D portraits are renders of the 3d character models*.

*Also... IMO it's pixel art if it's a 2D bitmap ~even if it's derived from a rendered 3d model.