2D Sprites or 3D Models? [poll added]

[Lanatir]

I dunno....but 3D to me rings the same bell that 'social' does. It is far far far from the classip RPG feeling.

Why exactly?

See, if i could point a finger to it i could tell you. Does it make sense when i say 'it doesnt sound right' ?

When i hear 3D i see Fallout 3. I see shooters. I see action. I know its only 3D MODELS, but still. As an old WL1 and Ultima 4 Veteran i might even go as far as to say that i would love to see a comeback of that style, even tho it wont happen.

[Gizmo]

I dunno....but 3D to me rings the same bell that 'social' does. It is far far far from the classip RPG feeling.

Why exactly?

See, if i could point a finger to it i could tell you. Does it make sense when i say 'it doesnt sound right' ?

When i hear 3D i see Fallout 3. I see shooters. I see action. I know its only 3D MODELS, but still. As an old WL1 and Ultima 4 Veteran i might even go as far as to say that i would love to see a comeback of that style, even tho it wont happen.

I understand you... but they were making the earliest RPGs as first person 3d (looking) games, so do any of us believe that had the consumer platform developed the speed and 'hardware 3d' popularity back then, that they would not have leaped on it?

IMO we are discussing digital cave paintings (made with the PC equivalent of fingers and crushed rocks in mud), and saying they would never have used a sable brush. Brilliant art made with primitive tools, but advance the tools and you advance the potential for art ~and you can still use modern brushes and paints and have it look like a like a cave painting if you wanted to.

[Lanatir]

Another issue i have with 3D models is that im afraid it will eat too much out of the games budget that i would rather like to see going into making the gameworld bigger and bigger and bigger.

[The_A_Drain]

Another issue i have with 3D models is that im afraid it will eat too much out of the games budget that i would rather like to see going into making the gameworld bigger and bigger and bigger.

Don't worry about this, it's not 1992 anymore. As has been pointed out by so many people throughout this thread nowadays, with monitor resolutions being what they are nowadays and 3D tools being so advanced (back then it wasn't even uncommon for someone to have to make changes to a 3D model by literally coding the vertices), particularly in the field of animation (stuff like tweening and animation blending) as well as using modular assets, 3D models are so much cheaper than 2D artwork, for a number of reasons.

If you want a bigger game world, then right now 3D is the cheaper and more flexible option.

I think the reason there's a lot of confusion with this issue is mainly due to cinematic sequences which have become part and parcel of 3D games, those take a horrendous amount of time, unique animations, and additional tools as well as additional sound effects and often motion capture, etc. (For Resident Evil 5 Capcom basically hired out an entire film studio, and invented a new kind of camera, not to mention the budget that gets eaten up by facial capture tech ) They eat a massive chunk out of any budget but that won't be the case here.

[Gizmo]

Another issue i have with 3D models is that im afraid it will eat too much out of the games budget that i would rather like to see going into making the gameworld bigger and bigger and bigger.

Perhaps it could... I don't really know the going rate for 3D mesh modeling... but I do know that while you could draw several dozen sprites in the time it would take to model a good 3d mesh... once you had, you could catch up in an hour.
(And if they came to you and said, "Do it again, but his time missing an arm, and having a peg-leg", you could do those in an hour also.)

[The_A_Drain]

Another issue i have with 3D models is that im afraid it will eat too much out of the games budget that i would rather like to see going into making the gameworld bigger and bigger and bigger.

Perhaps it could... I don't really know the going rate for 3D mesh modeling... but I do know that while you could draw several dozen sprites in the time it would take to model a good 3d mesh... once you had, you could catch up in an hour.

An hour isn't far off, tbh. There's some really good tech out there that will take one set of mocap animations and apply them naturally to different proportions of character, and that's free tech the good stuff should be even better. Once you've made one 3D model, rigged and animated it and can use it as a base, those animations can be applied and every so slightly adjusted to a whole bunch of other models very quickly.

Whereas 2D, hand drawn each frame for each character would have to be drawn by hand and tweaked manually. even for pre-rendered you then have to render each animation from every angle you need and make sure all the lighting is correct, etc.

[dmazz]

3D backgrounds CAN look as stylish as 2D, but it's alot harder to achieve even in the latest AAA games. I don't know why this is the case, but it is. 3D with a 2 million budget won't look good (NWN2), compared with what can be achieved with 2D.(Commando's)

Also 2D backgrounds are 2.5D now, and can incorporate things like lighting and particles, like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Q6ISVaM5Ww
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtYvNEmmHXE
2D emulating 3D in 3D engine using all modern tech effects. And it's pretty obvious this will cost less than 3D of equal quality.

[CookieEatingHuskarl]

Commandos 3 was full on 3D though. That was pretty.

BTW, 2.5 D's been around forever. They might even predate modern 3D engines that the AAA devs are using now. Most of the MMOs made in the Asian region usually run on 2.5D. It has it's benefits but it's frankly the worst of two world for me.

[GemmaReborn]

I'm good either way. It just needs to support highest resolutions whatever the format.

[Mort2]

Commandos 3 was full on 3D though. That was pretty.

BTW, 2.5 D's been around forever. They might even predate modern 3D engines that the AAA devs are using now. Most of the MMOs made in the Asian region usually run on 2.5D. It has it's benefits but it's frankly the worst of two world for me.

Are you sure? if so that was one hell of good looking 3D
http://old.games.tiscali.cz/navody/comm ... /mapa3.jpg

[dmazz]

Commando's 2 and 3 used a 3D engine but were all 2D. I couldn't detect any advanced 3D effects either. (lighting, particle, shadow) This is probably due to the game being 9 years old. Here's another game with great 2D backgrounds that's 10 years old http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McgoK6GBjYw

More contemporary 2D games are more effective at emulating 3D, by using lighting, shadows, physics and particle effects. Bionic Commando Rearmed released 2008 did a good job of this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yc_utuHk7xk
The sequel looked like it went more 3D and lost some style points for it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUbaObMTdAI

[CookieEatingHuskarl]

That's what wikipedia says

The game is the first in the series to use a true 3D engine, and the last to use real-time tactics before being converted to a first-person shooter genre.

I have also noticed some of the less snowy places looked a bit more clunky than their snowy counterparts. Thus, my impression that they made the background and props in 3D as well.

Also do keep in mind that the devs most likely were extremely proficient with 2D paintings, judging by their previous work in the commandos series. So its safe to say they have the capability to cook up one hell of a texture.

Edit : Scratch that. I'm most likely having a setback of false memory as the brain is telling me you could rotate the camera in commandos 3. Need to find a gameplay video.

Edit 2 : Just watched one on the first Russian level, the guy rotated the camera. Guess that means the props were all 3D.

[The_A_Drain]

More contemporary 2D games are more effective at emulating 3D, by using lighting, shadows, physics and particle effects. Bionic Commando Rearmed released 2008 did a good job of this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yc_utuHk7xk
The sequel looked like it went more 3D and lost some style points for it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUbaObMTdAI

Not sure if this is a misunderstanding, or if I've misunderstood you. But Bionic Commando Rearmed is 3D, it's entirely 3D. It's only the gameplay that is restricted to the XZ axes, but the visual is entirely 3D, it's not emulating 3D.

For reference, these games are built using the same engine, Grins 'Diesel' Engine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_game_engine

[Smejki]

Commandos 3 was full on 3D though. That was pretty.

BTW, 2.5 D's been around forever. They might even predate modern 3D engines that the AAA devs are using now. Most of the MMOs made in the Asian region usually run on 2.5D. It has it's benefits but it's frankly the worst of two world for me.

Are you sure? if so that was one hell of good looking 3D
http://old.games.tiscali.cz/navody/comm ... /mapa3.jpg

I am pretty sure the backgrounds were 2D pre-rendered for 4 angles so you could rotate camera a bit.

[CookieEatingHuskarl]

It's weird, you're right about the outdoor camera being limited to 4 (or was it 2) angles. But the indoor camera was fully 3D. Nifty trick huh.

[Gizmo]

It's weird, you're right about the outdoor camera being limited to 4 (or was it 2) angles. But the indoor camera was fully 3D. Nifty trick huh.

I've never played this game... but if the engine was 3D, what's to stop them from having used only 2 or 4 fixed cameras as a design choice, rather than allowing full rotation?

[CookieEatingHuskarl]

That was not about the graphics.I'm saying the limitation of the camera in this case, actually helped the gameplay for the outdoor portion of it.

[Gizmo]

That was not about the graphics.I'm saying the limitation of the camera in this case, actually helped the gameplay for the outdoor portion of it.

I can believe it.

[Tagaziel]

The entirety of Commandos 1 was pre-rendered too. Take a moment to notice how every character has a three dimensional equivalent and in nearly every briefing, you get a full 3D shot of the mission's target (for instance, the radio station in Baptism of Fire).

[Mort2]

Which brings me back to a point I previouslly made, considering that Fargo said that there would be modding tools, I cant see anything other option but 3D.