Do not listen to fans too much

[rudel_dietrich]

Artistic license is still paramount. Here in the last few weeks we have seen one of the worst travesties I have ever witnessed in my 22 years of gaming.
For me it will forever be known as Mass Effect 3 syndrome. A section of the community has cried out and now the ending of the game is being changed.

If you think Bioware has any artistic integrity left to defend, or if their pasting on Deus Ex's ending to their game was an exercise of artistic license, I really wonder what exactly you consider art.

You would be missing the point then. I am not giving opinion on the ending good or bad. I am simply defending their right to make such an ending as they see fit.

Going back and changing the ending could be the start of a very dangerous precedent in the industry, You could start a tend of always catering to the lowest common denominator even after something is released. Or you could significantly change cannon story or gameplay after release.

[krellen]

Going back and changing the ending could be the start of a very dangerous precedent in the industry

Horse hockey.

It's already been done. It's been done in every industry. The movie industry banks on making changes; they're called test screenings. Books are changed. Music is changed (hell, there's a whole sub-industry devoted to giving people what they want.)

This idea that there's some slippery slope we're teetering on is complete and utter bullshit, and it especially has no place in conjunction with a project that has from the outset been billed as "giving the fans what they want".

[kad136]

"People aren't pledging for new, innovative features."

no? i do. so you`re wrong. you`re assuming something and write it down as if it was a fact. wasteland1 was innovative? it was extremely innovative. it would be innovative again today, because cause and effect doesn`t really ripple through the games lately. so if they build up the whole good old working mechanism, why on earth they shouldn`t do something new as well if it adds to the game? i really can`t get it, why do you guys fighting soooo hard against anything innovative?

I was generalizing. Perhaps I'm mistaken but I think it's a fair generalization to make.

Please note that if you're pledging for new, innovative features then you are not pledging what was originally described in the pitch. Nowhere in the original pitch did Fargo suggest any sort of innovative features. If you want that and get that then congratulations. But you're hoping for something that simply has not been promised in any way whereas the people who aren't pledging for new, innovative features are hoping to get something that has been promised.

Do I think there's room for innovation? Sure. Do I think breaking too much from the core formula is a mistake? Yes. Do I think people are overreacting to the particular social feature? Yes.

[kad136]

I am in the camp that wants to see a game that is as much new as it is old. I really think the developers should be able to experiment with concepts and ideas for the gameplay. I mean there are probably hundreds of ideas they probably wanted to do in the original wasteland that they couldn't do because of technology was the limiting factor. Today the technology isn't the problem but instead it is the creativity and imagination of the developers.

I would like to see a game like that as well, but not for this project. I think it's a mistake to take that approach for this project because of how it was originally pitched. And I think the recent outrage (justified or not) makes it quite clear that this indeed is not the project for such things.

[mindx2]

I would like to see a game like that as well, but not for this project. I think it's a mistake to take that approach for this project because of how it was originally pitched. And I think the recent outrage (justified or not) makes it quite clear that this indeed is not the project for such things.

Those are my feelings exactly!! Let's get this ONE old-school styled game out there to prove that it can be viable. Maybe not commercially successful for one of the big publishers but financially viable for the mid to small sized studios out there. Use the profits on this game to start "innovating" on your next one. This was pitched as a return to old-school gaming NOT as an pledge drive to cram innovation after innovation into a game.

[Michaeljack]

Hey there-
I have a very general suggestion;
since I never played the previous game I won't pretend I know what exactly should or shouldn't be in the sequel, BUT-

Please, make sure to not go overboard with fan's suggestions. It may be silly saying this to experienced industry veterans, but I've seen a couple of times where an over-reliance on fans for ideas just ruined the entire game project.

What I'm meaning to say it, while acknowledging the advice from the fans, try and keep your own distinct flavor for the game- I'm sure it will be for the best.

This, this 100xthis. Look what happened to 'Snakes on a Plane' when they listened too long and too hard to the fans

[krellen]

Look what happened to 'Snakes on a Plane' when they listened too long and too hard to the fans

They made something completely awesome?

[homeslice82]

Look what happened to 'Snakes on a Plane' when they listened too long and too hard to the fans

They made something completely awesome?

Well, it bombed hard. I think that's what he's saying.

It's kind of like Weezer's Maladroit. Crowdsourcing ideas can have adverse effects.

[Michaeljack]

Look what happened to 'Snakes on a Plane' when they listened too long and too hard to the fans

They made something completely awesome?

More like they overextended themselves trying to please everyone and as a result the movie suffered

[UniversalWolf]

The interesting thing about this forum so far is how many different people have (and have had for years, apparently) very firm ideas about what the game should be -- and how different those ideas are. Without any real justification I always assumed there was some sort of silent consensus about what Wasteland 2 ought to look like. That notion has been completely destroyed.

To be honest, I like it. To my surprise I'm discovering I'm open to quite a few ideas I hadn't considered before.

Some of them are just dumb, but that's to be expected.

[uncledrax]

I agree with the OP. There are a variety of ideas floating around here.. some good.. some.. not that relevent.. some just not that well thoughtout or already (as I preceive it) present in teh Wasteland story/atmosphere.

Brian, Stackpole, St.Andres, all you guys.. make us WL2.. if you aren't sure of something, we're here to provide input.. but I hope you're trusting your experience by default.

[MightyHedgehog]

Just remember what game you guys are making the sequel to here. That should guide and supersede all other considerations when looking at other games for ideas. This game was pitched and funded on the premise/promise of it being the old-school RPG that represents values tossed away by modern fans and game makers alike as they mistakenly embraced everything that has led to this game having to be funded by the fans of that first Wasteland game in the first place.

[paultakeda]

I agree with the OP. There are a variety of ideas floating around here.. some good.. some.. not that relevent.. some just not that well thoughtout or already (as I preceive it) present in teh Wasteland story/atmosphere.

Brian, Stackpole, St.Andres, all you guys.. make us WL2.. if you aren't sure of something, we're here to provide input.. but I hope you're trusting your experience by default.

The nice thing is that 1) Brian got the old gang back together and 2) they and their devs are all replaying Wasteland. Not SimWasteland or World of Wasteland or Wasteland: Fallout. They are replaying Wasteland.

I posted a thread a week or so ago asking if the ranger mods could post the things publishers said to Brian that made it impossible to sell until the Kickstarter project. I really believe that with that list half the threads on this site will be rendered moot.

[knux81]

I agree with the OP. There are a variety of ideas floating around here.. some good.. some.. not that relevent.. some just not that well thoughtout or already (as I preceive it) present in teh Wasteland story/atmosphere.

Brian, Stackpole, St.Andres, all you guys.. make us WL2.. if you aren't sure of something, we're here to provide input.. but I hope you're trusting your experience by default.

The nice thing is that 1) Brian got the old gang back together and 2) they and their devs are all replaying Wasteland. Not SimWasteland or World of Wasteland or Wasteland: Fallout. They are replaying Wasteland.

I posted a thread a week or so ago asking if the ranger mods could post the things publishers said to Brian that made it impossible to sell until the Kickstarter project. I really believe that with that list half the threads on this site will be rendered moot.

While I agree that Wasteland 2 should be as close to the original games idea as possible...You would have to factor in new things. For one everyone seems to have played a different Wasteland to me. I don't remember it as a squad based tactical RPG. I remember it as a Rogue like top down exploration game with combat dealt with by dungeon crawler mechanics.
True it had a squad...but I wouldnt exactly call that a tactical game.

The style already seems to have changed to isometric and people believe it to have the squad based tactical elements of Fallout:Tactics. This is a fundamental change to the way the game was. It's gone from Ishar or Might and Magic to Eye of the Beholder. Why has no-one kicked up a stink about that? O.o

Let's not kid ourselves...It's been 20+ years. The designers have grown and matured since then...Brian has been working on and off on this project for all that time and has a master plan. This WILL include new things.
We have put money down to get a sequel...and sequels tend to try and improve what was good about the original and add new features to evolve the game.

There is such a thing as stifling creativity through fear of change.

I backed this project to AVOID this situation. I don't want to have the vision of this game diluted or dumbed down. I want the game to be what the devs intend...I'm not stamping my feet saying "THIS WASNT IN THE FIRST GAME!" or "ZOMG WTF why you doing that?"
I understand that games over time change. Sometimes for the better...sometimes for the worse...Fallout 1 and 2 for example. Amazing games...Fallout:Tactics - A bit too combat orientated but still a damn fine game. Fallout Brotherhood of Steel (or PoS)...Um...Was fun in co-op if you hung your brain out for awhile. Fallout 3 and New Vegas = Great games. FPS style a nice change but I missed having a party. I also found the characters to be a bit dull.

[krellen]

The style already seems to have changed to isometric and people believe it to have the squad based tactical elements of Fallout:Tactics. [..] Why has no-one kicked up a stink about that? O.o

Because absolutely no one was on my side so I just gave up trying. I still think those changes are complete bullshit, though.

Seriously, this project is making me hate Fallout, and I love Fallout so much that I'm currently running a PbP Fallout game.

[knux81]

The style already seems to have changed to isometric and people believe it to have the squad based tactical elements of Fallout:Tactics. [..] Why has no-one kicked up a stink about that? O.o

Because absolutely no one was on my side so I just gave up trying. I still think those changes are complete bullshit, though.

Seriously, this project is making me hate Fallout, and I love Fallout so much that I'm currently running a PbP Fallout game.

Dude, I'd back you! I loved the old combat style...
The thing is it may just be the map screen that is isometric...We just don't know yet as nothing other than it will feature an isometric perspective has been said.

Keep ya chin up

[Dogmeat]

Wasteland hardcore fans scare me, that's what i learned by reading this forum. And seeing how radical are in their opinions, and how vocal, i sorta agree with the title of this thread.

Also, the community here is not that big (yet), and it may not be the best to listen to the most vocals posters around here, imo.

But after all, i believe Fargo has enough good judgement to filter the bad ideas. We shall see.

[Greenpee]

@Dogmeat
Fuck fear. Listen to what they have to say, forget how they say it. If it were up to me I'd have them shipped to inXile to work directly with developers and report back (one way) to the rest of us on what's being done. Also, there's no 'hardcore Wasteland fans', there's Wasteland fans and there's every-game-but-Wasteland fans, this is painfully obvious.

[paultakeda]

While I agree that Wasteland 2 should be as close to the original games idea as possible...You would have to factor in new things. For one everyone seems to have played a different Wasteland to me. I don't remember it as a squad based tactical RPG. I remember it as a Rogue like top down exploration game with combat dealt with by dungeon crawler mechanics.
True it had a squad...but I wouldnt exactly call that a tactical game.

It's an adventure RPG to me. The thread on tactical combat with crouching, overwatch, etc. bores the heck out of me. If it gets implemented seamlessly such that it's based on a skill or attribute check, then fine.

Let's not kid ourselves...It's been 20+ years. [...] This WILL include new things.

Most certainly. For one, Brian plans for the story to have a lot more narrative. I also expect an improved combat system and a highly developed new version of WL's MSPE system. What I don't expect is a completely new system that involves far too much tactical management for combat and resource management for exploration such that the narrative gets lost.

There is such a thing as stifling creativity through fear of change.

Certainly. I'd like to think that while I am one of the ones that probably is seen as firmly on the "Wasteland is Wasteland" camp I'm not trying to stifle improvements to the format. But I'll tell anyone to get off my lawn if he/she suggests swapping out skill checks for a minigame, making it a solo character with a destiny, make me spend an hour on a fight that would have lasted less than a minute in WL1, and/or make me spend precious hours on a resource management screen rather than exploring the world map. All those things? Those are romantic vampires, red boots and avian ammo based projectile weapons. That's why I was asking for the mods to post a list of things publishers suggested that made Brian see red.

[Balls Out 3]

I agree that InXile shouldn't listen to the fans too much, but I trust Fargo and the dev team to know what's best in that regard. I'm not sure if this has been said yet or not, but they should also remember to make a game that they want to play too. If we want a truly inspired video game with a soul, there's no other way to do it. Combine that with what I hope is increased creative freedom because there is no publisher to stick their fingers in the creative process, and things should turn out great. Let's bring back a little of that old school Interplay feeling. By gamers, for gamers.

And let's not put too much pressure on Fargo and crew. The game will likely turn out at least good. If it doesn't turn out great, do not despair. I think it's still very important that this project happened in the first place. This will (and already has) inspired other Kickstarted games, and given birth to the Kicking it Forward program. It's sent a message to publishers that we don't need them, and to the mid-sized dev houses that there is demand for old school PC RPGs.