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Children in Wasteland 2

Discussion of the ambiance of Wasteland 2

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Children in Wasteland 2

Postby Virus_ST » March 27th, 2012, 5:24 am

I remember this was a big issue with Fallout 3, so big in fact that fans of Bethesda thought Fallout fans didn't like the third installment because you couldn't kill kids, which was of course wrong; but let's not go there.
I think that this game, now that it's free from the shackles of corporate decisions can explore the boundaries of maturity further. I'm not saying there should be a child-torture mini-game but killable kids and some disturbing stories surrounding child exploitation - like slavery and prostitution - could definitely spice things up.
I'm sure a lot of us would enjoy stopping a Kony in Wasteland 2, maybe some of us would even enjoy being one (not me though never... heh :? ), but since we want a ruthless and believable post-apoc world these types of things should not be left out or censored.
That's my opinion, though. What do you think guise and goils?
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Re: Children in Wasteland 2

Postby anubite » March 27th, 2012, 8:12 am

There's a number of reasons not to like Fallout 3's atmosphere and as an extension Skyrim's atmosphere.

The most obvious is the inclusion of "integral" NPCs that cannot die. This is not only kills your immersion, but it doesn't even make sense. Morrowind let you kill integral NPCs - and it told you right after if you'd like to reload your game because you just broke the game's story. That's a PERFECT approach. Maybe I just want to screw around - it's a game. Having invulnerable children just ruins the experience.

And it's not because I'm secretly a pedophile / murderer in real life. It's because children are the future of the wasteland. They're somebody's kid, trying to survive in a harsh world. They should mean something. And they don't in Fallout 3 or even Skyrim.

Children, if they're to be included, should be killable. But don't stop there - let there be consequences for killing children. That's how it should work. I kill a child in a large community and get caught - I'm no longer welcome in that community. It's time for a bloodhunt. I'm a wanted man.

There are also other ways you could approach children. They're a popular philosophical dilemma - are children more important than parents? Perhaps you have to make a choice between saving children and saving some important political figure, or something.

And sure, somebody's going to go on an in-game rampage killing every child they find - and what's wrong with that? They're virtual children. We don't need to censor a fantasy world (in theory) when the real world is often more brutal and disgusting.

Maybe this player wants to end the human race because he thinks it's evil, and has decided the most painless way is to destroy its next generation. Let him roleplay that killer and see where it leads.
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Re: Children in Wasteland 2

Postby GemmaReborn » March 27th, 2012, 11:11 am

Having children in a post-apocolyptic game is like watching someone taking a dump on my favorite TV show. Unnecessary.
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Re: Children in Wasteland 2

Postby anubite » March 27th, 2012, 11:55 am

Having children in a post-apocolyptic game is like watching someone taking a dump on my favorite TV show. Unnecessary.


Cute post. I can respect differing opinions and directions Wasteland 2 can take ... but only if people provide actual arguments? This isn't a sitcom so why don't you back up your cheesy comment with something substantial, because as far as I'm concerned - Fallout 1 and 2 were way better than Fallout 3. Guess which games had kill-able children in them?

Not to suggest we need to have children in the game - just that taking children out really didn't do Fallout 3 any favors and having them in probably would have forced Bethesda to include some much needed realistic consequences for being a murderer in that game. You know, in a game where I can donate all of my money to some beggar and have max Karma, then kill him and get my money back, while maintaining almost identically high karma.
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Re: Children in Wasteland 2

Postby venceremos » March 27th, 2012, 12:16 pm

Having children in the game and having them be killable, just like other people, adds to the realism and believability of the in-game world. On the other hand, an unexplained complete lack of children or their unexplained immortality breaks the immersion immediately.

There's very few reasons not to have killable children in an RPG. Either it's explained in the in-game world ("children cannot die here because of magic, chosen one, haven't you heard?!"; "women haven't been able to become pregnant for twenty years now, chosen one!") or it's purely attempting to be politically correct and not end up on any "for mature players only" lists.
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Re: Children in Wasteland 2

Postby LaRoque » March 27th, 2012, 12:31 pm

Having children in a post-apocolyptic game is like watching someone taking a dump on my favorite TV show. Unnecessary.

If no one is taking a dump on your favourite show that doesn't mean they don't do it.
If you come in to a town where there are no children that means there are none.
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Re: Children in Wasteland 2

Postby Virus_ST » March 27th, 2012, 3:24 pm

Everything anubite stated in this thread reflects my opinion on the matter perfectly.
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Re: Children in Wasteland 2

Postby __Pent__ » March 27th, 2012, 4:16 pm

Virus_ST wrote:Everything anubite stated in this thread reflects my opinion on the matter perfectly.

Agreed.
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Re: Children in Wasteland 2

Postby GemmaReborn » March 28th, 2012, 8:40 am

anubite wrote:
Having children in a post-apocolyptic game is like watching someone taking a dump on my favorite TV show. Unnecessary.


Cute post. I can respect differing opinions and directions Wasteland 2 can take ... but only if people provide actual arguments? This isn't a sitcom so why don't you back up your cheesy comment with something substantial, because as far as I'm concerned - Fallout 1 and 2 were way better than Fallout 3. Guess which games had kill-able children in them?

Not to suggest we need to have children in the game - just that taking children out really didn't do Fallout 3 any favors and having them in probably would have forced Bethesda to include some much needed realistic consequences for being a murderer in that game. You know, in a game where I can donate all of my money to some beggar and have max Karma, then kill him and get my money back, while maintaining almost identically high karma.


Yes. I cracked myself up a little bit on that one. Post-itis I suppose. I should have used sadistic instead of unnecessary...oh well.

Wasteland. First town you go to is Camp Highpool. First NPC you run into is Bobby. Second is Jackie. Both are children. Bobby has an encounter with you after you kill his rabid dog in the cave. You can kill Bobby. Jackie you rescue from the cave. She joins you and becomes an NPC in your party, a child.

There is a situation for you to figure out. BAM! Out of the gate in Wasteland you are presented with two choices. Do I paste this snot nosed little mongrel? Do I take this poor child I rescued on my perilous travels throughout the wasteland?

I wasn't appalled. I wasn't crying out omg there are killable children in this game. I wasted little Bobby. Sad. It was a situation presented to you where you had to make a choice. A true moral choice. Do I really kill this kid? Can I get around him? There is the difference in what you suggest and what is truly a moral RP situation.

Not that you suggest we need children in the game. Just children that can be killed. Because that made Fallout 1 and 2 better? Really, THAT made FO1 better than FO3? So you can feel justified in having made a truly moral decision? No you just want to be able to pick off a kid in a town and have them chase after you and be the bad guy. Please.

I stand behind my initial reply without having to break down your petty need to include children in a game where they have no place other than to be killable. Unnecessary. You can replace every child NPC in a Post Apoc game with an adult and not miss a damn thing.
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Re: Children in Wasteland 2

Postby BlackGauntlet » March 28th, 2012, 5:29 pm

*I* missed it. :roll:
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Re: Children in Wasteland 2

Postby venceremos » March 28th, 2012, 11:50 pm

GemmaReborn wrote:Not that you suggest we need children in the game. Just children that can be killed. Because that made Fallout 1 and 2 better? Really, THAT made FO1 better than FO3?


Yes, that's one of the things that made one of the games better than the other.

Either have children in-game and have the world be consistent by letting them be killable, or remove children from the game entirely and explain it somehow (like Children of Men, for example). Or explain why children are immortal.

I stand behind my initial reply without having to break down your petty need to include children in a game where they have no place other than to be killable. Unnecessary. You can replace every child NPC in a Post Apoc game with an adult and not miss a damn thing.


You can miss an entire dimension of the world where children actually matter and have an effect on it. The same goes for any other element our real-world society has a tendency to frown upon, such as sex and drugs.

Make Wasteland a post-apocalyptic world where bad things truly can happen.

Don't make it pretty and safe and pink.
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Re: Children in Wasteland 2

Postby D Bishop » March 29th, 2012, 6:23 am

I think having children in the game would add to the atmosphere. Having played both versions of Fallout 2 (the one with kids and the one without them) I can say that The Den, for example, had a much nicer feel to it with all those kids running around.

In fact in my opinion the kids in Fallout 2 were perfect. Most of the time you could just ignore them but when they picked a sniper rifle out of your pocket you had to either steal it back or teach the kid a lesson (read: shoot them in the face with a .44 magnum).

So like I said, MY own personal opinion is that wasteland 2 should have kids in it. But for the love of god, if there are kids in WL 2, don't make them immune to damage. No kids is still better than Fallout 3 kids.
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Re: Children in Wasteland 2

Postby TechnoShaman » March 29th, 2012, 6:41 am

D Bishop wrote: No kids is still better than Fallout 3 kids.


Agree totally. If their are to be kids, it needs to be consistent with the game world. having anyone be immortal is an immersion breaking aspect, that I truly hope doesn't happen.

Personally I really liked the inclusion of the the street urchin kids in Fallout that would run right up to you and steal your stuff. It added to the concept that you weren't truly safe anywhere which is what I'd expect in a wasteland setting.
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Re: Children in Wasteland 2

Postby GemmaReborn » March 29th, 2012, 1:52 pm

First off. I don't believe inXile will shy away from any of the moral choices and situations they crafted in Wasteland. It's a part of their mission statement. Part of the core design process. I included an example in my second reply about the first real encounter you have in Wastland. Bobby. Him being a child and all of the choices you had there.

I did not mean to imply that I didn't want Bobby in the game or any children to be in the game. What I'm trying to get a across, poorly, is that it was Bobby. It wasn't random child number five. It was Bobby. You find him crying. You try to rescue his dog and his friend. The dog is rabid and attacks you and you kill it. Bobby is gone when you exit the cave. When you get go to leave Camp Highpool. Bobby is there. Time to decide. Whew...that's some role-play. That is a moral decision!

I find having NPCs in game just for the killing is unnecessary. Sure, children frolicking give you a sense of community and life. I still find it unnecessary. I never ran through Baldur's Gate wondering where the murderable NPCs were. I thought in F03 that it was odd the lamplighter kids wouldn't attack you. Especially if you were a slaver. It didn't ruin my immersion that I couldn't murder them. There are SEVERAL NPCs I wish i could kill in Skyrim, oh well.

I don't think we will have to worry about any of that in Wasteland 2. They will make a serious product I'm sure we will all enjoy.
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Re: Children in Wasteland 2

Postby snakeoil » October 19th, 2012, 12:50 am

of course there should be children in wasteland 2 and of course they should be treated just as adults. this includes childsoldiers, slavery, torture and prostitution. it fits the post apocalyptic setting and all these things are facts of the human society, ignoring it would be pretty immature. carls story in "the walking dead" is a good example.
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Re: Children in Wasteland 2

Postby Almiriad » October 19th, 2012, 3:14 am

I agree that there should be children in WL2 and that they shouldn't be different than the others NPC.

This can only broaden the gmaing experience and offer us much more choices and complicated situations.
The difference between a good Ranger and a bad Ranger ?
The bad Ranger, he sees some mutant and he shoots, but you know, he's a bad Ranger.

The good Ranger, he sees some mutant and he shoots ! But he's a good Ranger !!
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Re: Children in Wasteland 2

Postby Woolfe » October 19th, 2012, 10:18 pm

snakeoil wrote:of course there should be children in wasteland 2 and of course they should be treated just as adults. this includes childsoldiers, slavery, torture and prostitution. it fits the post apocalyptic setting and all these things are facts of the human society, ignoring it would be pretty immature. carls story in "the walking dead" is a good example.


Yeah but you do need to be careful of the ratings in this case. I'm not saying they shouldn't be included, it simply needs to be done carefully.
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Re: Children in Wasteland 2

Postby radscorpion9 » October 31st, 2012, 7:46 pm

GemmaReborn wrote:First off. I don't believe inXile will shy away from any of the moral choices and situations they crafted in Wasteland. It's a part of their mission statement. Part of the core design process. I included an example in my second reply about the first real encounter you have in Wastland. Bobby. Him being a child and all of the choices you had there.

I did not mean to imply that I didn't want Bobby in the game or any children to be in the game. What I'm trying to get a across, poorly, is that it was Bobby. It wasn't random child number five. It was Bobby. You find him crying. You try to rescue his dog and his friend. The dog is rabid and attacks you and you kill it. Bobby is gone when you exit the cave. When you get go to leave Camp Highpool. Bobby is there. Time to decide. Whew...that's some role-play. That is a moral decision!

I find having NPCs in game just for the killing is unnecessary. Sure, children frolicking give you a sense of community and life. I still find it unnecessary. I never ran through Baldur's Gate wondering where the murderable NPCs were. I thought in F03 that it was odd the lamplighter kids wouldn't attack you. Especially if you were a slaver. It didn't ruin my immersion that I couldn't murder them. There are SEVERAL NPCs I wish i could kill in Skyrim, oh well.

I don't think we will have to worry about any of that in Wasteland 2. They will make a serious product I'm sure we will all enjoy.


It just adds more believability to the game, so why not include it? I mean how long would it take to include the animations. If there ever turn out to be annoying children, or children that steal from you, you can kill them. If we want this to be a realistic game, then it should be realistic in all of its facets.

This is essentially turning into a "my subjective experience vs yours" debate. I think the better approach is that, for a lot of people it would break immersion and they take the game more seriously...such that having no children in society is disappointing and unrealistic, or making them immortal doesn't make sense. There is no good reason to not have killable children except silly moral arguments (it should be a *nice* apocalyptic wasteland!), but there are good reasons to keep it in...as in there is a good amount of people who like the game being more realistic.

The only argument you've raised is that it doesn't bother you that killable children don't exist and that its unnecessary...which isn't really an argument against, more like an argument as to why you personally don't care either way.

Personally I would love it if they included that. There *is* something gritty and evil about being able to kill children, even if they are essentially random NPCs. Beyond that, like you say - you like that there can be morally challenging quests that would involve children with backstories. It would be logically contradictory to have killable children that have good quests associated with them (i.e. maybe something about having to kill thieving children who steal because they are starving for food? I don't know I'm not a good writer :P), but not have children be killable in general or mysteriously absent from large communities.
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Re: Children in Wasteland 2

Postby Drakol » November 7th, 2012, 8:27 am

Didn't the Original Wasteland have Children / Juveniles who were out for your blood and you had to defend yourself?
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Re: Children in Wasteland 2

Postby McDougle » November 7th, 2012, 1:48 pm

Right from the start(I´m currently watching a lets play - and they encounter kids quite often).

I also think that children are a quite necessary part of WL and thus need to be included in WL2. They can make fun NSC to interact with, it can be quite an interesting challenge for players who usually rampage everything to circumvent child-encounters(because they might not want to kill children) and for all realism and "plausability"-guys out there = the wasteland would be quite empty without children.

I don´t think we have to "worry" though:
1. Bryan mentioned the drowning child encounter -> this is almost a commitment that children will be featured in the game.
2. There were many malicious and twisted children that the player sometimes even had to kill in WL1(and WL2 is supposed to come uncensored and for a mature audience) -> I don´t think anyone has to fear for invincible children.
3. Even if 2 turns out to be false(I dont think so) -> We will be able to mod the game = make the mod you want, invincible children or not.

The next question is:
Will we be able to let a child-"Ranger"(maybe a child of one of the rangers with certain talents?) tag along from the start of the game? 8-)
the tall dark stranger -> Collin McComb
>When I said “no” I felt like a kid who had to stay inside and practice the piano while all his friends got to go eat ice cream and have awesome sex on the moon.<Pat Rothfuss
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