Food, water and fatigue management

[Smash]

Forgive me if this is a repeated topic:

I played the original a long long time ago and I've forgotten if this was in it. However, a lot of RPGs of the time have it and for the most part it sucks. Even in modern games where food is basically a shit health pack it sucks.

Maybe it's half of what made Wasteland compelling but if it is, make it compelling. Maybe I have to scrounge for it early in the game but maybe later when resources become less of an issue It can just be auto-managed (i.e set party to eat at certain hunger levels). Maybe the party can find technology to make it easier (stillsuits) or can produce it (grow food, a water distillery, etc).

Personally I'd just rather see it out but if it has to be in make it more than having to pull break out of a backpack, click on my portrait and have a food-bar go from red to green.

[Proton Axeman]

There wasn't any in the individual game -- no need to eat, sleep, or defecate. The closest it came to water management was that going into the deep desert could hurt each character that lacked a canteen or leather jacket.

[krellen]

or leather jacket.

... A leather jacket protects against desert heat?

AHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Oh man, that's awesome. I'll have to try that.

[Tanglebones]

Forgive me if this is a repeated topic:

I played the original a long long time ago and I've forgotten if this was in it. However, a lot of RPGs of the time have it and for the most part it sucks. Even in modern games where food is basically a shit health pack it sucks.

Maybe it's half of what made Wasteland compelling but if it is, make it compelling. Maybe I have to scrounge for it early in the game but maybe later when resources become less of an issue It can just be auto-managed (i.e set party to eat at certain hunger levels). Maybe the party can find technology to make it easier (stillsuits) or can produce it (grow food, a water distillery, etc).

Personally I'd just rather see it out but if it has to be in make it more than having to pull break out of a backpack, click on my portrait and have a food-bar go from red to green.

The original WL didn't have much in the way of survival management. In addition to the canteen and leather jacket mentioned by Proton Axman, players had to avoid radiation, but could wear a rad suit. Personally, I really enjoy it when games have a sort of survival aspect to them. I thought Fallout: New Vegas' hardcore mode was neat, but that it kind of suffered because the game itself didn't support the hardcoreness of hardcore mode. That is to say, there was always plenty of food, water and ammo available. I'd prefer to have to make meaningful choices like: Do I burst now, and waste a whole clip of ammo, but hopefully save some medical supplies, or do I save my ammo at the risk of using precious supplies later?

That said, survival management should enhance the gameplay experience, it shouldn't be onerous busy-work. Using FO:NV's system for a party of 6 would be boring beyond belief. Food and water could potentially be managed mostly behind the scenes, like, so long as you're carrying food in your inventory, your character will eat it when he needs it. Same thing with water (although perhaps with characters automatically filling their water bottles too whenever you come to a source). Ammo should be rarer in the game than in any of the Fallouts... but I think the key to making a really interesting survival-type experience is to keep inventory space relatively realistic, so the Rangers aren't carrying around a month's worth of food and water and enough ammo to supply a regiment.

Also, they should have to sleep sometimes.

[BlackGauntlet]

Also, they should have to sleep sometimes.

Add in the need for defecation & social interactions and we will have The Sims: Wasteland Survival.

[abdiel420]

In Mount and Blade you had to feed your army, and similar to what Tanglebones said it was automatic as long as you had food in your inventory. That is an easy and non intrusive way of making players feel like they need a resource to survive (other than bullets). At the same time, Wasteland isn't really a survival game, it's a post-apocalyptic RPG. I could take it or leave it, as long as it isn't tedious.

[Tanglebones]

Also, they should have to sleep sometimes.

Add in the need for defecation & social interactions and we will have The Sims: Wasteland Survival.

Well... for myself, anyway, complex and interesting dialogue is essential to an RPG... so there's the social interaction. And I've always found it a little weird that I can play a game watching my character's every action for 400 hours (Fallout: New Vegas) and he never poops once. Maybe WL2 can finally right this weird space in my heart...

But seriously, if you don't like survival elements to games, that's certainly a fair position to take (which is why I think it's great if stuff like having to eat and drink can be put in a special "mode"), but just dismissing it by saying "That's like the Sims" isn't exactly fair or on point. I mean, that's like saying I don't want there to be guns in the game because I don't want this to be another Call of Duty clone.

I like the idea of survival elements, because I like the feeling of struggling against a difficult environment that I get early on in RPGs. I like in Skyrim, or Morrowind, or Fallout: New Vegas, being the guy who's in this situation with almost nothing and having to be careful about how I spend my resources. But usually, by about level 5, or by the time I'm done with the first town, that's out the window because I've picked up everything that's not nailed down (I might need it, you know). I'd like the game to say, look, if you pick up everything, you're going to run out of room for the things you need to survive. The point is not (just) about making the player monitor the food/water levels, the point is about making the player make meaningful decisions about how to solve problems, and I think that's very much an RPG kind of thing.

[Haraldur]

I think that managing fatigue, food and water is too much of a distraction when you are in inhabited areas where one would expect the party members to be able to scrounge something for themselves etc., but it is perhaps a viable mechanic when exploring a desert as it would be a little silly to be able to walk around in the desert indefinitely without resources.

A viable system (I think) could be:

The party as a whole has one meter each for fatigue, hunger and thirst. Each settlement has an inn/similar that will completely satiate all three (reduce them to zero) after an 8-hour stay and some coins (a nominal fee, depending on how rich the party is). So far, so simple, so abstract, so painless, so pointless -- but! if the party strays too far from the towns then the meters will keep increasing and all kinds of nasty effects start being applied (including death, eventually). If they restrict themselves to traveling between settled areas they need think of nothing more than resting at the inn on arrival, but if they choose to strike out into the desert then they will need to rest outside (increased radiation risk? poisonous scorpions? etc.) and bring food and water with them (possibly reduced by using their outdoorsman skills to find food and water in the wasteland, but otherwise slowing them down and increasing fatigue [depending on whether they have a vehicle] so they need to rest more often, eat and drink more etc.).

This also would allow the developers to avoid using invisible walls or other hard railroading techniques as any destination beyond a certain distance would be too far away to find by exploration (without luck or metagaming) and so would have to be entered after having the location found out through conversation/reading a holodisk/whatever, if the party did not want to die horribly in the desert. The same would apply to parties trying to exit the game area by going east (assuming this is Southern California) -- they would probably die before reaching the edge of the map.

[TheLastBrunnenG]

At the same time, Wasteland isn't really a survival game, it's a post-apocalyptic RPG. I could take it or leave it, as long as it isn't tedious.

Concur. I'm after a WL revival for its RPG elements, not its survival aspects. Maybe if it's a selectable option ("Track food / water use and fatigue? Y/N"), then I can unselect it. As long as that kind of micro-management isn't forced on us.

[BlackGauntlet]

Also, they should have to sleep sometimes.
But seriously, if you don't like survival elements to games, that's certainly a fair position to take (which is why I think it's great if stuff like having to eat and drink can be put in a special "mode"), but just dismissing it by saying "That's like the Sims" isn't exactly fair or on point. I mean, that's like saying I don't want there to be guns in the game because I don't want this to be another Call of Duty clone.

I like the idea of survival elements, because I like the feeling of struggling against a difficult environment that I get early on in RPGs. I like in Skyrim, or Morrowind, or Fallout: New Vegas, being the guy who's in this situation with almost nothing and having to be careful about how I spend my resources. But usually, by about level 5, or by the time I'm done with the first town, that's out the window because I've picked up everything that's not nailed down (I might need it, you know). I'd like the game to say, look, if you pick up everything, you're going to run out of room for the things you need to survive. The point is not (just) about making the player monitor the food/water levels, the point is about making the player make meaningful decisions about how to solve problems, and I think that's very much an RPG kind of thing.

You and me both. I was being satirical and wondering why The Sims: Medieval has so much RPG elements in it but cut off the need to answer the Call of Nature.

Great if the Rangers need to poop once in a while and have the possibility of getting a scorpion sting him/her in the arse.

[Tanglebones]

You and me both. I was being satirical and wondering why The Sims: Medieval has so much RPG elements in it but cut off the need to answer the Call of Nature.

Great if the Rangers need to poop once in a while and have the possibility of getting a scorpion sting him/her in the arse.

Oh hey! We're on the same page. I love it when that happens.

[Key Pyr]

Since we're dealing with a party of 4 - 6 characters, managing multiple resources like food, water, and fatigue in addition to health and ammo can become a hell of a chore.

But seeing as this thread is in the What to Avoid sub-forum, it seems like the OP is on the same page

[TheEmissary]

It could be simplified by having the consumption management requiring you to camp or visit a town so often. It would be assumed you ate and drank when you camped or stopped for the day/night.

[paultakeda]

It could be simplified by having the consumption management requiring you to camp or visit a town so often. It would be assumed you ate and drank when you camped or stopped for the day/night.

The assumption is that as rangers you can figure out food and water no matter where you were except in hot zones, at which point you damn well better have your canteen.

At this point, I'm really thinking I'd rather just stick to the canteen. All of this is turning into to much survival tactics versus exploration and combat.

[kitzune]

Neverwinter Nights had several online servers (some may still be running) but many of them were just ruined when the owner decided to implement a more "realistic" feel and require food to sleep and at least 12 hours of game time in-between sleeping. While it matched the rules and perhaps realism better, it took away from the game. Every other attempt, to include FO 3/NV have been pointless. I really do not want to micromanage these items, I don't even want to think about them. It may take away from "realism" but as in another post, games have little to do with real war situations. And agree with a previous post here, if implemented; please make optional.

[Woolfe]

It could be simplified by having the consumption management requiring you to camp or visit a town so often. It would be assumed you ate and drank when you camped or stopped for the day/night.

The assumption is that as rangers you can figure out food and water no matter where you were except in hot zones, at which point you damn well better have your canteen.

At this point, I'm really thinking I'd rather just stick to the canteen. All of this is turning into to much survival tactics versus exploration and combat.

Yeah me too.... My suggestions have all been aimed at appeasing and adding interesting elements whilst still using the skills and core elements of the game as the tool to apply.

The main thing behind the skills etc, is that they are somewhat automatic. If you have a high Sniper skill, you don't manually apply the targeting bonus, it just happens.

Thus Use a skill and have it apply automatically. The concept of a canteen/mess kit etc was just a way to add an element without going into micromanagement ALL the time.

[Herethos]

or leather jacket.

... A leather jacket protects against desert heat?

AHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Oh man, that's awesome. I'll have to try that.

I don't think it protected against anything except from damage by walking into the random cactuses on the map.

[krellen]

or leather jacket.

... A leather jacket protects against desert heat?

AHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Oh man, that's awesome. I'll have to try that.

I don't think it protected against anything except from damage by walking into the random cactuses on the map.

Yes, that is true. I did try it, and it didn't protect against heat.

But the idea is still hilarious.

[Warder]

I say track only water. Assume that the party gets regular sleep and that they stock up on rations, but water is a necessity in the desert wasteland. Part of going into the desert should be to stock enough water to get you where you need to go.

[paultakeda]

I say track only water. Assume that the party gets regular sleep and that they stock up on rations, but water is a necessity in the desert wasteland. Part of going into the desert should be to stock enough water to get you where you need to go.

Canteen. Worked great. Yes, I'm being old-fashioned, but it was a great mechanic and one I want enhanced. Mess kit for food. Skills that lower damage and other negative modifiers if the items are missing.