Drug use- does it deserve its own topic?

[Alaseur]

There should be drugs. Even though I personally wouldn't use them, I wouldn't want to lose out on the storylines that could revolve around them. However in general most "hard" drugs should be pretty rare, with people preferring alcohol or marijuana. I'd also prefer real drugs such as Morphine over fake drugs such as Med-X in all cases.

A note on Stimpacks: Something of that nature does exist and is militarily considered but not used. Stimulant injections don't actually heal you, though. It's like a sort of a super adrenaline that lets you ignore the pain and persevere. It's actually generally worsens the effects of wounds because of increased exertion. I would be fine with seeing a stimpack like that which eliminates the penalties to rolls that a character takes from his wounds.

A cold beer and some reefer. No better way to spend a Sunday afternoon.

[sync-oz]

Yes of course! just like IRL lots of drugs and drug use especially amongst the people of the wastes who would I imagine be getting wasted a lot - it'd be a pretty bleak existence after all. Real drugs + futuristic made up drugs all sound good. And realistic type effects would be cool.

[Pharo]

This needs to be it's own topic. Drugs have to be portrayed realistically. I've seen it done wrong so many times and it's just infuriating to me as a... gamer that this topic is never given any real depth of thought in games, or film and television for that matter.

[Revoran]

Drugs need to be done realistically. Drug use is often done REALLY badly in games. As someone who knows a thing or two about drugs and how they work, I implore you not to do this badly.

You essentially have two options:

1. Use real drugs in the game (either mention them or have them as a game mechanic), or
2. Use imaginary drugs in the game (this is less likely to get you censored, but requires a little more thought)

Real drugs:

In a post-apocalyptic setting, synthetic drugs are going to be hard to come by for the most part. Making synthetic drugs requires chemicals that are hard to come by unless you have an industrialised civilization. LSD requires a very long and complex process to make, it would not be around. MDMA, methamphetamine, amphetamine, nitrous oxide, PCP and ketamine would not be around. Heroin would be rare even if opium poppies are available.

It is much more plausible that there will naturally occurring drugs. It is up to you to decide how fertile the wasteland is, which will decide what plants (and hence drugs) can grow there:

• Alcohol is easy to make if you have some excess sugar, grain or fruit. Think homemade beer and high-strength spirits.
• Opium is dried sap from opium poppies - very hardy plants. Opium contains morphine and codeine. Heroin is made by diacetylizing morphine, but this is impractical/not possible without industrialisation, and heroin is only more potent than morphine if you inject it (who will make the needles after the apocalypse?).
• Cannabis (marijuana) is a very hardy plant that is useful for more than just drugs. Up until 70 years ago, making things from hemp was extremely common - the first law in North America regarding cannabis was one that required all landowners to grow it. Ship sails, clothes, rope, sacks - even the draft copies of the US Constitution - were all made from hemp. You get the idea.
• Peyote and other types of cacti contain mescaline and grow in deserts.
• Khat is a hardy African plant that contains cathinone and methcathinone, strong stimulants similar to amphetamine.
• Coca grows in wet environments and can be chewed or brewed into tea for the cocaine it contains. Extracting the cocaine would be impractical post-apocalypse. Crack cocaine is a freebase form of cocaine - again you are unlikely to see it after the apocalypse.
• Coffee and tea grow well only in wet environments.
• Tobacco requires decent rainfall. Manufacturing cigarettes on a large scale requires a factory.
• Hallucinogenic mushrooms require decent rainfall.

Injecting drugs is just not practical without industrial civilization. Use a rusty needle and get tetanus. Use a second-hand needle and get hepatitis or HIV. Most drugs would be chewed, eaten or smoked.

Addiction is a VERY BAD THING. Without a proper social support network, an alcoholic is every bit as bad as a meth-head or heroin junkie (or opium addict, or whatever).

Imaginary drugs:

If you choose to create imaginary drugs (I have no problem with this in a fictional setting), you need to follow a couple of rules. First, drugs have actual chemical names. They are not called things like "Chemical X" because that's just silly. If you are going to use names like "Jet" make it clear that they are street names.

You shouldn't be able to take 500 doses of most drugs and survive. In the real world, 15 doses of meth, 10 doses of alcohol (around 50 drinks) or 6 doses of heroin will kill you. Too many depressants will cause coma and death. Too many stimulants will cause deadly high blood pressure.

Third, drugs don't heal you to full health, they give status effects like increased stamina (stimulants), resistance to pain (morphine, heroin, marijuana) or resistance to anxiety and fear (benzodiazepines). Alcohol is an amazing disinfectant. A drug shouldn't be simultaneously a stimulant and depressant as this is very rare. Most hallucinogens don't make you see imaginary things, most of them just warp your perception - with the exceptions of deliriants.

TL;DR: Not all drugs are equal. Fully synthetic drugs will be hard to come by in the absence of industrial civilization. Some are more toxic than others - I should not be able to take 500 doses of most drugs and live. Some are more addictive than others. They all have different effects, but drugs do not "heal" people to full health. They have real names not stupid ones like "Chemical X".

[Pharo]

Drugs need to be done realistically. Drug use is often done REALLY badly in games. As someone who knows a thing or two about drugs and how they work, I implore you not to do this badly.

You essentially have two options:

1. Use real drugs in the game (either mention them or have them as a game mechanic), or
2. Use imaginary drugs in the game (this is less likely to get you censored, but requires a little more thought)

I agree with #1 but #2 I've only seen done poorly. Even Fallout 2 is guilty of mediocre handling of the subject. There's plenty of lore to draw upon about real drugs, invented drugs always seem to have nonsensical properties.

[Drinkyourtea]

Drugs need to be done realistically. Drug use is often done REALLY badly in games. As someone who knows a thing or two about drugs and how they work, I implore you not to do this badly.

You essentially have two options:

1. Use real drugs in the game (either mention them or have them as a game mechanic), or
2. Use imaginary drugs in the game (this is less likely to get you censored, but requires a little more thought)

Real drugs:

In a post-apocalyptic setting, synthetic drugs are going to be hard to come by for the most part. Making synthetic drugs requires chemicals that are hard to come by unless you have an industrialised civilization. LSD requires a very long and complex process to make, it would not be around. MDMA, methamphetamine, amphetamine, nitrous oxide, PCP and ketamine would not be around. Heroin would be rare even if opium poppies are available.

It is much more plausible that there will naturally occurring drugs. It is up to you to decide how fertile the wasteland is, which will decide what plants (and hence drugs) can grow there:

• Alcohol is easy to make if you have some excess sugar, grain or fruit. Think homemade beer and high-strength spirits.
• Opium is dried sap from opium poppies - very hardy plants. Opium contains morphine and codeine. Heroin is made by diacetylizing morphine, but this is impractical/not possible without industrialisation, and heroin is only more potent than morphine if you inject it (who will make the needles after the apocalypse?).
• Cannabis (marijuana) is a very hardy plant that is useful for more than just drugs. Up until 70 years ago, making things from hemp was extremely common - the first law in North America regarding cannabis was one that required all landowners to grow it. Ship sails, clothes, rope, sacks - even the draft copies of the US Constitution - were all made from hemp. You get the idea.
• Peyote and other types of cacti contain mescaline and grow in deserts.
• Khat is a hardy African plant that contains cathinone and methcathinone, strong stimulants similar to amphetamine.
• Coca grows in wet environments and can be chewed or brewed into tea for the cocaine it contains. Extracting the cocaine would be impractical post-apocalypse. Crack cocaine is a freebase form of cocaine - again you are unlikely to see it after the apocalypse.
• Coffee and tea grow well only in wet environments.
• Tobacco requires decent rainfall. Manufacturing cigarettes on a large scale requires a factory.
• Hallucinogenic mushrooms require decent rainfall.

Injecting drugs is just not practical without industrial civilization. Use a rusty needle and get tetanus. Use a second-hand needle and get hepatitis or HIV. Most drugs would be chewed, eaten or smoked.

Addiction is a VERY BAD THING. Without a proper social support network, an alcoholic is every bit as bad as a meth-head or heroin junkie (or opium addict, or whatever).

Imaginary drugs:

If you choose to create imaginary drugs (I have no problem with this in a fictional setting), you need to follow a couple of rules. First, drugs have actual chemical names. They are not called things like "Chemical X" because that's just silly. If you are going to use names like "Jet" make it clear that they are street names.

You shouldn't be able to take 500 doses of most drugs and survive. In the real world, 15 doses of meth, 10 doses of alcohol (around 50 drinks) or 6 doses of heroin will kill you. Too many depressants will cause coma and death. Too many stimulants will cause deadly high blood pressure.

Third, drugs don't heal you to full health, they give status effects like increased stamina (stimulants), resistance to pain (morphine, heroin, marijuana) or resistance to anxiety and fear (benzodiazepines). Alcohol is an amazing disinfectant. A drug shouldn't be simultaneously a stimulant and depressant as this is very rare. Most hallucinogens don't make you see imaginary things, most of them just warp your perception - with the exceptions of deliriants.

TL;DR: Not all drugs are equal. Fully synthetic drugs will be hard to come by in the absence of industrial civilization. Some are more toxic than others - I should not be able to take 500 doses of most drugs and live. Some are more addictive than others. They all have different effects, but drugs do not "heal" people to full health. They have real names not stupid ones like "Chemical X".

Hi,

I think that was very informative for those who know very little about drug production and the like and feel that they should do something very similiar to this like if they are going to make fake drugs put the effects of real drugs in the description/consequences.

Regards

[ravenshrike]

Definitely include them if it's at all feasible, manufacture and distribution of drugs (recreational and medical) could be a great source of profit, power and conflict in post-apocalyptia. Drug gangs fighting each other - just like they're doing now!

Drug gangs fight each other because their product is illegal. With no illegality the existence of drug gangs would largely disappear outside of very large polities which had banned the substances again. Now, you might have a caravan that controls the supply of sayyy, coke because that would have to come up through mexico. But marijuana would be available to anyone who bothered to grow it. Same thing with opium and heroin.

[Lokik]

I hope that using any kind of drugs in game doesn't get the character instantly addicted, as it's just not very realistic. If a character uses a certain drug (including alcohol) too often, then there should be the danger of getting addicted. Perhaps stats could somehow affect this as well?
Not sure what kind of cures there would be for the addiction, other than going cold turkey, which would have negative effects (severity depending on the drug) on the character until he finally gets rid of the addiction. Also would be nice if the character who has been previously addicted or is suffering from withdrawal gets the drug in his inventory, can't resist and uses it automatically.

[sync-oz]

Not sure what kind of cures there would be for the addiction, other than going cold turkey, which would have negative effects (severity depending on the drug) on the character until he finally gets rid of the addiction. Also would be nice if the character who has been previously addicted or is suffering from withdrawal gets the drug in his inventory, can't resist and uses it automatically.

That's a cool idea. Your character could purposefully throw away the drug they were addicted to, but if someone gave it to you or you looted a body with it your character might take it instantly before you could intervene. Should only apply to the hardest drugs. Or perhaps linked to some measurement of willpower and chance.. Might be more appropriate for a single player game or NPCs, I dunno, but I like the idea.

[Journeyman]

I'd like to see druggs used to replace what would be potions in a fantasy setting. Need an alertness boost? DIp into some of the pre-apoc military's dexedrine stockpile. Need a morale boost? Smoke a joint. Want to pass that intelligence check thatyou are just a few points below? Snort some adderall.
Most games that use drugs saddle them with unrealistic and annoying downsides. Which is why i use drugs far more often in real life then in video games. I think they should provide small, negative free bonus, balanced by scarcity, or small temporary debuffs (say, slower initiative or lowered reflex saves to balance out a cannabis morale bonus, since it would be presumably less rare than chems)

[Drool]

Most games that use drugs saddle them with unrealistic and annoying downsides.

Right, because in real life, drugs don't have side-effects.

[Orko]

Definitly for drugs in game. it gives so much potention for story telling. And as many said bevore it fits in such a devestated world.

But it should be done right. Best implementation i saw was in Fallout 1&2. The posibility to get adicted just gives it this extra layer.

Every drug needs 2 things. A reason to take it(good effekt) and a downside after the use. And the posibility to get hooked.
Taking a drug from time to time should have a good boost and a down period with penelatys.
Than drugs should have diminishing returns if you use them too often. So you get less boost and more down, and get you hooked so you get withdrawl signs after not taking more sometime.

[LaRoque]

I believe drugs (both as drugs and meds) would be your equivalent of magic buffs from other RPG games that make you stronger, faster, smarter for a limited duration of X hours/days.

[Orko]

but magic has (very rarely) a downside. But drugs have even your un of the mill asprin (if you take enough or mix it with other drugs like alcohol ).
I loved the addicted mechanic in Fallout even startet a new run through with an addicted char just for the flair of it.

[LaRoque]

but magic has (very rarely) a downside. But drugs have even your un of the mill asprin (if you take enough or mix it with other drugs like alcohol ).
I loved the addicted mechanic in Fallout even startet a new run through with an addicted char just for the flair of it.

Of course, of course. Downside should also be reflected by loss of stats after the buff duration depending on how much you took, and whether or not you mixed it with something else. Some combinations could give you a massive uhh... "debuff" straight away, I imagine.

And of course the addiction problem. Well, either you get him drugs to somehow get him back to the fight at only slightly decreased efficiency or uhm... detox?

[dehen]

I think it's more about setting than maturity level.

From a gameplay standpoint, drugs offer a convenient way to offer quick buffs in a setting that doesn't really offer you magical or sci-fi means to do the same. Buffs can be important because they can open up gameplay avenues that might be otherwise unavailable. It's been awhile, but I don't think my stealth/charm build could have won the boxing match in New Reno in FO2 without layering a few buffs.

In addition drugs come with some consequences which further enhance gameplay, and make them more interesting that some of the alternatives.

Finally, while agree with Revoran that it would be fun to integrate ideas about how available certain things might be in the wastes, I don't think it's necessary to strive for high-realism at the cost of gameplay. That is to say, I don't care if the drug-effects are 100% realistic, I'm more concerned with giving them decently strong effects that could open up gameplay.

[Conall]

I had a chem reliant squad in fallout tactics... the upshot of this was I had to have a sober 'designated driver' to pilot the APC back to base after a mission while they were all on comedowns, as all there stats went to shit and they could not shoot straight. This amused me greatly

[D Bishop]

Drug use - yes please.

Oh and I remember having a character in Fallout 2 that was addicted to psychos. Was a great character too. I think he may have been an alcoholic as well...

[Conall]

A mate of mine loaded Sulik in fallout 2 up with drugs (all of them) then packed him full of primed C4 and used him as a suicide bomber - good times

[Vaultboy]

I think that drugs must be in Wasteland 2.Firstly drugs is earnings for big organizations.Secondly every anesthetic preparations in some case is drugs