Gay Characters

[The_A_Drain]

I don't really see how Bioware 'shoved' the gay issue down anyone's throat. The entire mention of the subject literally boils down to a guy grieving as he would for any loved one, only he uses the word "husband" instead of "wife". And one character turning you down if you choose to make a move on her because she's lesbian. That's it. Nobody shoves anything anywhere (especially not if you were male shephard going after the lesbian comm's officer).

Don't get me wrong, it's clumsy, but that's something that permeates the entire game, not just the LGBT issue. Which tbh, I feel bad even calling an 'issue'. It shouldn't even be one.

[Balls Out 3]

You know what could be funny? If the game made fun of the fact that most people in the 80's had no gaydar. For example, Rob Halford used to go on stage looking like he just came out of a leather bar, and no one suspected a thing.

[Elerond]

Fact is, if you're playing videogames in order to feel "represented", being gay is the least of your problems.

Yep nobody sane person ever would image that he/she is the (main) character in game, that is why nobody never says that some game gives immersion that oneself is part of game.

And it sciencificaly proofed that people don't seek rolemodels from books, movies, celebrites or games. It is absolute ridiculous even to think some persons would hang pictures of these characters to their walls.

[dariuszp]

I don't really see how Bioware 'shoved' the gay issue down anyone's throat. The entire mention of the subject literally boils down to a guy grieving as he would for any loved one, only he uses the word "husband" instead of "wife". And one character turning you down if you choose to make a move on her because she's lesbian. That's it. Nobody shoves anything anywhere (especially not if you were male shephard going after the lesbian comm's officer).

Don't get me wrong, it's clumsy, but that's something that permeates the entire game, not just the LGBT issue. Which tbh, I feel bad even calling an 'issue'. It shouldn't even be one.

Then you never did play Bioware games or you miss it Try Dragon Age II. They made almost every character bisexual just to satisfy gay people if I remember. Like they have no identity or something. More to that - every homo character wanted to f*** you in this game and if you refuse - you just got "rival" points or how they call that silly and broken morality system of theirs. They even turned straight guy from Awakening (who was dreaming about his own home and cute girl with him) into gay. And they even make him whine whole game about everything (just like that engineer)
Only way to please everyone was to be f***** by everyone. And it was so forced that I couldn't stand it.

Don't get me wrong. I have no problems with gay people in any place but make it natural. Stuff like in this sitcom when "drunken master" change into "polite businessmen" just because he turned gay, or games when they literally throw gay people at you (DA II - I'm looking at you) are just silly and stupid.

In ME 3 I didn't like the guy NOT because he was gay but because he WHINE all the time. This is why I wanted to throw him out of airlock. Just like Carth Onasi in KOTOR.

I know 1 gay personally and 1 barely (they are very rare in my country ) and I NEVER knew they were gay. One I know for around 8 years and I learn this from his sister when we were out drinking (he confirmed). One is my friends uncle. I meet him 3 or 4 times on various occasions and I wouldn't tell. Normal people. Just love different.

But don't do that like Bioware did. And make it in a way that MAKE SENSE.

[Elerond]

Then you never did play Bioware games or you miss it Try Dragon Age II. They made almost every character bisexual just to satisfy gay people if I remember. Like they have no identity or something. More to that - every homo character wanted to f*** you in this game and if you refuse - you just got "rival" points or how they call that silly and broken morality system of theirs. They even turned straight guy from Awakening (who was dreaming about his own home and cute girl with him) into gay. And they even make him whine whole game about everything (just like that engineer)
Only way to please everyone was to be f***** by everyone. And it was so forced that I couldn't stand it.

If we speak truth there was only four bisexual characters in DA2, which were romanceable characters. And no one of them proposed sex or anything else to you if youself did not flirted with them. And you can be only friends with all of them without getting any rivalrity points. And if you fucked everybody you got everyones hate except your last laid.

[The_A_Drain]

I don't really see how Bioware 'shoved' the gay issue down anyone's throat. The entire mention of the subject literally boils down to a guy grieving as he would for any loved one, only he uses the word "husband" instead of "wife". And one character turning you down if you choose to make a move on her because she's lesbian. That's it. Nobody shoves anything anywhere (especially not if you were male shephard going after the lesbian comm's officer).

Don't get me wrong, it's clumsy, but that's something that permeates the entire game, not just the LGBT issue. Which tbh, I feel bad even calling an 'issue'. It shouldn't even be one.

Then you never did play Bioware games or you miss it Try Dragon Age II. They made almost every character bisexual just to satisfy gay people if I remember. Like they have no identity or something. More to that - every homo character wanted to f*** you in this game and if you refuse - you just got "rival" points or how they call that silly and broken morality system of theirs. They even turned straight guy from Awakening (who was dreaming about his own home and cute girl with him) into gay. And they even make him whine whole game about everything (just like that engineer)
Only way to please everyone was to be f***** by everyone. And it was so forced that I couldn't stand it.

Don't get me wrong. I have no problems with gay people in any place but make it natural. Stuff like in this sitcom when "drunken master" change into "polite businessmen" just because he turned gay, or games when they literally throw gay people at you (DA II - I'm looking at you) are just silly and stupid.

In ME 3 I didn't like the guy NOT because he was gay but because he WHINE all the time. This is why I wanted to throw him out of airlock. Just like Carth Onasi in KOTOR.

I know 1 gay personally and 1 barely (they are very rare in my country ) and I NEVER knew they were gay. One I know for around 8 years and I learn this from his sister when we were out drinking (he confirmed). One is my friends uncle. I meet him 3 or 4 times on various occasions and I wouldn't tell. Normal people. Just love different.

But don't do that like Bioware did. And make it in a way that MAKE SENSE.

I've played every Bioware game

I just didn't feel like anything was being shoved down my throat, As for "just to satisfy gay people", that's pretty offensive and I'm straight. Not every character was bi-sexual, and to my recollection only one character really did any sort of announcing. I hated pretty much everything about Dragon Age 2 apart from the characters, or at least a handful of them. I felt they were really well done. It's Mass Effect 1-2-3 that I was referring to when I said clumsy.

I think there is also a massive disconnect between a whiny character and a gay character. You didn't like the guy because he was whiny, awesome. Neither did I, he bored the heck out of me. But if it's got nothing to do with him being gay, why even mentioned it here? It's not even relevant.

The other thing nobody ever seems to touch on in these threads is that with sci-fi or fantasy worlds, the zeitgeist is going to be very different from our own world and societies.

This is a gross generalization, I'll admit, but it seems like a lot of these kinds of discussions always boil down to something along the lines of "I don't hate gays... BUT", "Gays should be included because if they aren't I'll be offended..." and "Who the fuck cares? If someones gay, someones gay...". I fall firmly in the third category.

For a real world example, I have to deal daily with a person who makes very certain to outline the fact that he is gay in every single conversation. He's completely socially inept (even moreso than myself) and has little or no empathy. Now, the fact that he annoys the crap out of me is entirely because he's a massive douchebag, the fact that he's gay doesn't even enter into it. Part of it is the fact he insists on making that as a point every conversation, but I'd feel the same about someone who did that with religion, or sports, or anything.

[stonetoes]

they literally throw gay people at you

Like with a catapult? ...sorry, I know english isn't your first language, that's not really fair.

In ME 3 I didn't like the guy NOT because he was gay but because he WHINE all the time.

But then why did you even bring him up in this discussion? I can list annoying, whiny characters from many games, but this is a topic about gay characters. If your problem with him wasn't that he was gay, why mention him at all? This is why when people say things like...

And make it in a way that MAKE SENSE.

...it makes me wonder just what they would consider making sense. I mean whether you liked the character or not, it's not like he was camping it up, and I don't think there was single mandatory conversation with him where his husband was even mentioned.

This isn't directed at you specifically darius, but I sometimes wonder if some people are completionists and ended up flirting with him just to see every conversation option and get every paragon point. I know that's what I did. Unfortunately it backfired on me and I ended up with him coming to my quarters in the night instead of my beloved Miranda. But who's fault was that? Mine! Nobody made me go through every dialogue option with him, being as nice as possible and using my seductive paragon voice to milk him for yet more paragon points. So I don't get to complain when the dude tries to dance with me in a bar.

[The_A_Drain]

I don't think there was single mandatory conversation with him where his husband was even mentioned.

Just to clarify there is one, literally only one. And if you chose never to even interact with the character you are correct, it's not forced. But assuming the player introduces himself the the entire crew, there is one.

He apologizes for his mind not being entirely on the job as he is mourning his dead husband, and then re-assures you that he will pull himself together and it will not effect his job or his ability to pilot.

Then he talks for ages about his piloting ability and how he ended up on the Normandy. He may or may not have mentioned his spouse during this description, I truly don't remember because I wasn't listening out for any hint of 'the gay' to be offended about.

After that, you can talk to him again if you wish and much like other characters in the game, he will talk about his dead husband from time to time. But that's it, he doesn't dance about continually informing you that he's gay.

[Workbench]

It's so simple. If the writers have a situation where this is relevant they will make it. otherwise this thread could also be called :

vegetarian characters
muslim characters
buddhist characters
Punk characters
chinese characters
female characters
socialist characters
painted toenails characters
slightly off characters
carpenter characters
that guy i once met characters
people that represent my points of view characters.

[The_A_Drain]

Punk characters

I think this is the line for me.

I thinks... I think I'm gonna be sick.

[Tagaziel]

Before this thread spirals completely out of control:

1. If you can't discuss the issue of including sexual minorities in Wasteland in a mature, inoffensive manner, then do not post at all.
2. The term "homosexuality" (and related -ities) does not imply that it's only related to physical intercourse. The only difference between a homosexual and heterosexual couple is gender.

If you can't comprehend number two or can't follow number one, don't post. Otherwise, your post will be removed and you will receive a warning.

Since Wasteland 2 is being made by fans of the original for fans of the original, it is a logical assumption that adults are using these forums. Thus it isn't much of a stretch to require mature, inoffensive manner of discussion.

Ranger Tagz out.

[dariuszp]

Ok, few clarifications.

Why I bring here ME 3 gay engineer when I said he was annoying and it have nothing to do with him beying gay
Probably that two most annoying characters I remember from bioware games, that whine all the time are Anders (Dragon Age 2) and that engineer. Both gay. And list don't end here but this is not for this discussion.
Bioware make them "flashy". Add some trait's that make you remember. Problem is - I remember them for wrong reasons (whiners).
I encountered some gay people in my life and it was always the same. Like everyone else. You could never know except one that was dressing like he have no idea what he is (male or female).
This is what I understand by saying "MAKE SENSE". At least don't add them annoying traits or not to everyone. I remember gay characters from Bioware games usually for wrong reasons.
Make them blend into background like everyone else. If that engineer would just notice about husband I wouldn't care. But he was so annoying that I perfectly remembered him. Same with Anders.
I understand that you could encounter some crazy gay NPC and that's OK. Crazy straight, crazy gay, whatever. But if you add crazy, whiny gay companion to player team that I will just let him die if I can, kill him myself or I will throw game out of the window.
Don't make Bioware mistakes. I have no idea if they wanted to satisfy gay organizations and make it wrong like everything else in DA II (someone said that it's offensive - how you explain changing from 1 gay and 1 bi characters in DAO to making almost whole team bi in DA II ??) or they wanted us to be annoyed by something to remember the game but that's wrong way to do it.

[The_A_Drain]

So, what, gay people should blend into the background? What about non-gays who don't blend into the background? It's ok for them to be annoying/whiny/'flashy'? Just so long as it's not an annoying gay person?

I am out of this debate before I say something I'll regret.

[sea]

If we speak truth there was only four bisexual characters in DA2, which were romanceable characters. And no one of them proposed sex or anything else to you if youself did not flirted with them. And you can be only friends with all of them without getting any rivalrity points. And if you fucked everybody you got everyones hate except your last laid.

Wrong. Anders proposed sex to my male character in Dragon Age 2 without me making any hints (except for, you know, not being a complete and utter asshole to him, which was the only alternative), and gave me rivalry points when I refused. That was when I realized the game had lost any and all credibility and I uninstalled that pathetic piece of trash.

It happens in Mass Effect 3 as well. Shepard flirted with not one, but two other guys without my saying so. Thankfully there was no "renegade +30" in there, but it was still kind of awkward. I have nothing wrong with gay characters in games, but it really feels to me that BioWare are over-compensating and trying to "strongly suggest" gay options to everyone. It feels like they assume the only reason players would want to talk to their party members is if they want to fuck them, which is both moronic and insulting.

By the way, to those who point to BioWare games, or X and Y television shows as being "progressive", and therefore superior - no, they're not. The reason this happens has nothing to do with diversity and everything to do with making money. TV networks and some game developers have realized that the "gay market" has more discretionary income than most other market segments (due to fewer commitments) and thus that they are easy money. On top of that, they are often so starved for content relevant to them that they will settle for anything. So no, BioWare and other companies are not being fair and equitable, as much as they'd like to spin it that way - they are being manipulative, pandering and borderline offensive. This is the developer that put out "Felicia Day's Hot Nerd Sex Party" DLC after all - do you really expect them to seriously raise the bar for fair portrayals of gay characters in videogames? It's goddamn softcore porn.

To get slightly back on track: nobody has a problem with gay characters in and of themselves. The problem is when they are explicitly featured in games (or other media) for sake of inclusion, in a way that is unrealistic, irrelevant, etc. I have no problem with "rescue my partner!", but when you have every third character explicitly gay or bisexual, that's both immersion-breaking and annoying.

For the record, this goes both ways - when characters in movies or TV shows say things to clarify they are not gay, that's just as annoying to me as well. No matter what the orientation is, it comes off as contrived and forced, and that's what I object to most of all.

[Mishrak]

No, just no. Token? Perhaps if it fits, but seriously - lets avoid deep sexual ideas and romance and drama llama nonsense and focus on surviving in a post apocalyptic wasteland.

Can't say as I ever give much thought to the sexuality of my characters. It's not a dating sim.

My thoughts exactly.

[Hell Razor]

I also think that if and when a developer decides to include a homosexual character, they feel the need to make sure you notice it. So it often feels like it's forced down your throat. Otherwise they may not get recognized and given credit for including homosexual characters.

[stonetoes]

Anders proposed sex to my male character in Dragon Age 2 without me making any hints (except for, you know, not being a complete and utter asshole to him, which was the only alternative), and gave me rivalry points when I refused.
...
Shepard flirted with not one, but two other guys without my saying so.

This is obviously more to do with Bioware's crappy dialogue system where you don't actually get to see what you're going to say, only a vague aproximation.

This tangent really needs to die though, it's well established that romancing people and gay characters are two different issues.

[Garfunkel]

I have a wild idea. How about the sexuality of characters is a complete non-issue? It doesn't need to come up at all! Never mention whether someone is straight, bi or gay. Just don't reference sexuality at all. Now that would refreshing.

[Gennadios]

I have a wild idea. How about the sexuality of characters is a complete non-issue? It doesn't need to come up at all! Never mention whether someone is straight, bi or gay. Just don't reference sexuality at all. Now that would refreshing.

You make way to much sense for an internet forum.

[luckz]

Wasn't the great thing about Bioware that you got 'evil' points for not wanting to sleep with a character of the same gender? (I didn't play that stuff, friends told me about it)

No, can't say I recall a point in any BIoware game I've played where you got renegade or rival personality points for choosing not to sleep with a character of the same sex. I think your friend may have been mistaken.

Look here:

More to that - every homo character wanted to f*** you in this game and if you refuse - you just got "rival" points or how they call that silly and broken morality system of theirs.

This is obviously more to do with Bioware's crappy dialogue system where you don't actually get to see what you're going to say, only a vague aproximation.

Steam should list "crappy dialogue wheel" as a feature so I know not to touch the game(s) in question.

This tangent really needs to die though, it's well established that romancing people and gay characters are two different issues.

Yes! I want no romancing in my Wasteland (for my character(s))! Is there a non-locked thread for this?

I have a wild idea. How about the sexuality of characters is a complete non-issue? It doesn't need to come up at all! Never mention whether someone is straight, bi or gay. Just don't reference sexuality at all. Now that would refreshing.

That's discrimination by pretending the LGBT community does not exist, plus further discrimination at the expense of sexual orientations specifically because the game's characters will have some form of "race" via having some form of skin colour(/name/voice), so unless they are only ever portrayed with helmets [and wearing body armor that lets you make no educated guess as to their gender (or religion, or age, or..)]..... and then you can't have no story in that precious game of yours.