Slavery

[Yossarian]

I think slavery is a serious issue that should be addressed in Wasteland 2. A post-apoc world is bound is have TONS of slaves/slavers, and I think it should be given a very large part to play in terms of story and atmosphere.

[undecaf]

I agree that slavery is a "serious" issue, and could add to the atmosphere. But I don't think it should be there just to provide something for the "good guys" to hate and oppose, and for the "baddies" to condone and endorse.

It should - imo - be presented as something you have to look from different (explained) angles to fully understand the motives of using it, and provoke thoughts about its justification in the given situation. Weighing the morals and benefits of it without being judgemental.

[Yossarian]

I agree that slavery is a "serious" issue, and could add to the atmosphere. But I don't think it should be there just to provide something for the "good guys" to hate and oppose, and for the "baddies" to condone and endorse.

It should - imo - be presented as something you have to look from different (explained) angles to fully understand the motives of using it, and provoke thoughts about its justification in the given situation. Weighing the morals and benefits of it without being judgemental.

I agree 100% I didn't mean for it to be interpreted as a 'Ultimate Bad Guys' trope, that small army of slaves in the fields is the only thing keeping people from starving! So if you were to choose to support those wanting to emancipate the slaves, they would have freedom yes, but hundreds would starve. Just a quick example.

[Azriel]

Yea, this reminds me a day in college where we were having a discussion about children being forced to work in sweatshops in other countries. Just about everybody in class kneejerked against it and said they should be closed down. However, one foreign exchange student said he supports it. Why? Because if they were not working in those conditions, they would be starving, dead, or forced into prostitution. It was something that made us all pause and think about.

Different cultures/histories treated slaves differently. In rome, most captured enemy were turned into slaves, people could sell their children into slavery and unwanted births were handed turned into slaves. What is interesting is that if a slave was released or earned freedom, it wasn't uncommon for them to turn into a slaver and capture their own slaves. It was just the way life was back then.

It is also interesting to read up on slavery in history, wikipedia has some fascinating info on it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery

Tidbit of the usual three types of slavery from wiki:

Chattel slavery, so named because people are treated as the personal property, chattels, of an owner and are bought and sold as commodities, is the original form of slavery. When taking these chattels across national borders it is referred to as Human Trafficking especially when these slaves provide sexual services.[10]
Bonded labor
Main article: Bonded labor

Debt bondage or bonded labor occurs when a person pledges himself or herself against a loan.[16] The services required to repay the debt, and their duration, may be undefined.[16] Debt bondage can be passed on from generation to generation, with children required to pay off their parents' debt.[16] It is the most widespread form of slavery today.[10]
Forced labor
Main article: Forced labor

Forced labor is when an individual is forced to work against his or her will, under threat of violence or other punishment, with restrictions on their freedom.[10] It is also used to describe all types of slavery and may also include institutions not commonly classified as slavery, such as serfdom, conscription and penal labor.

It is a interesting subject that I hope wasteland explores along with other hard subjects like prostitution, drug use, etc. It would be interesting to show that just stopping slavers and releasing slaves doesn't solve problems, but also creates whole new ones. However, I do want the option like fallout where you could actually join slavers and capture slaves. It just fits this type of setting.

[Woolfe]

It would be interesting if done right.

It would annoy me probably, cause I hate and despise slavers. Indeed I probably would still wipe them off the face of the planet.

Just the sort of moral grey area that would work well.

[anubite]

I'm reminded of Fallout 3's salvery. I was really into that at first, it seemed really interesting. But it just fell flat. The slavers need to be a bit more "deep" than "evil bad men profiting by kidnapping people and selling them into slavery" and if you're allowed to help slavers, there should be some obvious reason for doing so. A good example is selling your captured enemies into slavery? You make money, you punish your enemies, but maybe this decision isn't all that moral. Maybe it has unintended consequences.

[Zeful]

I'm reminded of Fallout 3's salvery. I was really into that at first, it seemed really interesting. But it just fell flat. The slavers need to be a bit more "deep" than "evil bad men profiting by kidnapping people and selling them into slavery" and if you're allowed to help slavers, there should be some obvious reason for doing so. A good example is selling your captured enemies into slavery? You make money, you punish your enemies, but maybe this decision isn't all that moral. Maybe it has unintended consequences.

Have different types of slaves and slavers. Have the guy that unabashedly a slave owner and dealer, views it as a necessity, but takes good care of his slaves, sells to people who will take good care of them, and trains them in manners complementary to their skills and personality. Contrast this guy with the more generic "go into a town, kill everyone that opposes us, loot everything of value, and chain up the survivors and uses them in mines and brothels, breaking them of any will" types. Then have factions relating to these groups view them differently, like the small district town of Goodfield hates both of them but the nearby district of Utilitarianism only like the guy because he's giving these people purpose and safety before injecting them into an understanding economy, while the wretched hive of Murderopolis hate the guy for not selling to them, while encouraging the raiders.

In short; make it morally grey and varied.

[Woolfe]

I'm reminded of Fallout 3's salvery. I was really into that at first, it seemed really interesting. But it just fell flat. The slavers need to be a bit more "deep" than "evil bad men profiting by kidnapping people and selling them into slavery" and if you're allowed to help slavers, there should be some obvious reason for doing so. A good example is selling your captured enemies into slavery? You make money, you punish your enemies, but maybe this decision isn't all that moral. Maybe it has unintended consequences.

Have different types of slaves and slavers. Have the guy that unabashedly a slave owner and dealer, views it as a necessity, but takes good care of his slaves, sells to people who will take good care of them, and trains them in manners complementary to their skills and personality. Contrast this guy with the more generic "go into a town, kill everyone that opposes us, loot everything of value, and chain up the survivors and uses them in mines and brothels, breaking them of any will" types. Then have factions relating to these groups view them differently, like the small district town of Goodfield hates both of them but the nearby district of Utilitarianism only like the guy because he's giving these people purpose and safety before injecting them into an understanding economy, while the wretched hive of Murderopolis hate the guy for not selling to them, while encouraging the raiders.

In short; make it morally grey and varied.

The good thing about that is I get to kill the nasties in Murderopolis, but then have to think about and maybe talk out a better solution for Goodfield.

I like it. And I hate it for making me think that slavers are anything other than scum...

[MDF_MadDogFargo]

I added Slave as a social skill into my skills system:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=856

"Featured skill: Slave (3 INT). Slave is a social skill. You practice it working. Slaves help at work, but it does not raise their morale. Slaves ignore morale; they don't gain any or lose any, unless they die. As they raise skill levels, they do better work and gain extra HP. They don't talk much. Slaves will not run from combat. Since they don't lose any morale, your party will not lose their morale no matter how bad the slave is hurt. A good strategy might be to fight with a lot of slaves, since they gain HP fast and you can't lose their morale. Slaves are followers, they contribute bonuses to command skills Leadership, Seduction, Vampire, Hypnotist, and Zealot. Morale checks for success of Slave rolls, but Slave increments do not raise Morale attribute. Slaves don't raise their social skills as fast as others do, because of their morale handicap."

I'm using Wasteland's rules plus a Morale attribute for my skills system. I haven't worked out all the details yet; nothing is final.

Wasteland is an amoral universe. It doesn't care if you're killing babies, or climbing sand dunes. It doesn't have a moral opinion about slavery. Characters in my imagined game would have individual opinions about slavery; most free people probably wouldn't like it, and there would be abolitionists. It's possible that social skills can be lost or forgotten.

[Woolfe]

I added Slave as a social skill into my skills system:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=856

"Featured skill: Slave (3 INT). Slave is a social skill. You practice it working. Slaves help at work, but it does not raise their morale. Slaves ignore morale; they don't gain any or lose any, unless they die. As they raise skill levels, they do better work and gain extra HP. They don't talk much. Slaves will not run from combat. Since they don't lose any morale, your party will not lose their morale no matter how bad the slave is hurt. A good strategy might be to fight with a lot of slaves, since they gain HP fast and you can't lose their morale. Slaves are followers, they contribute bonuses to command skills Leadership, Seduction, Vampire, Hypnotist, and Zealot. Morale checks for success of Slave rolls, but Slave increments do not raise Morale attribute. Slaves don't raise their social skills as fast as others do, because of their morale handicap."

I'm using Wasteland's rules plus a Morale attribute for my skills system. I haven't worked out all the details yet; nothing is final.

Wasteland is an amoral universe. It doesn't care if you're killing babies, or climbing sand dunes. It doesn't have a moral opinion about slavery. Characters in my imagined game would have individual opinions about slavery; most free people probably wouldn't like it, and there would be abolitionists. It's possible that social skills can be lost or forgotten.

Your definition of slave is too tight. In Roman times for example, many slaves were trusted and even held positions of power. This is partially becuase a valuable slave could expect to one day have freedom.
Also why do they gain HP? I would have thought a slave who didn't get fed well would get Con/Stamina penalties and therefore be low in hp?

But it is deliciously evil. I think I'd have to hunt you down and kill you in the WL universe (damn slavers)

[Zeful]

The good thing about that is I get to kill the nasties in Murderopolis, but then have to think about and maybe talk out a better solution for Goodfield.

I like it. And I hate it for making me think that slavers are anything other than scum...

Slavers kinda are scum, they take away the freedom of another sentient being and use it for personal gain. The problem is, after the end of modern civilization everyone is scum, because all those rigidly enforced taboos aren't enforced at all anymore. It's very much a "what you are in the dark" kind of scenario. This means that there are slavers who are less scummy than non-slavers, it's what they do, not why they do it that's important. A slaver that is kind to the slaves, discriminating in the buyer, and does his work to make sure that the slave will be useful and obedient without destroying any essential parts of the self and letting them retain their identity is a much better person than a group of well-armed vagabonds running around doing odd jobs and rummaging around in people's houses, and killing people for money/stuff/no reason despite the whole "I sell people for profit" thing.

[Lokik]

What if there would be be a place in the wasteland where captured raiders, murderers, rapists and other scum are used as slaves? The slave masters would be basically normal, friendly folk, but they use criminals as slave labour, and perhaps also treat them really bad. Could be an interesting moral dilemma if presented well.

[Zeful]

What if there would be be a place in the wasteland where captured raiders, murderers, rapists and other scum are used as slaves? The slave masters would be basically normal, friendly folk, but they use criminals as slave labour, and perhaps also treat them really bad. Could be an interesting moral dilemma if presented well.

A good example of what I'm talking about. A faction like this where "stealing from a thief" logic is uses is a great way to introduce ambiguity into the scenario. Especially when in your wandering through the map, a slave could imply that they were traders/mercenaries that just happened to be "in the way" and got enslaved as well, especially if it's possibly a lie.

[Harpo]

What if there would be be a place in the wasteland where captured raiders, murderers, rapists and other scum are used as slaves? The slave masters would be basically normal, friendly folk, but they use criminals as slave labour, and perhaps also treat them really bad. Could be an interesting moral dilemma if presented well.

A good example of what I'm talking about. A faction like this where "stealing from a thief" logic is uses is a great way to introduce ambiguity into the scenario. Especially when in your wandering through the map, a slave could imply that they were traders/mercenaries that just happened to be "in the way" and got enslaved as well, especially if it's possibly a lie.

This really sounds like both a reasonable way of thinking in some post-apocalyptic communities as well as a great setting for some great moral dilemmas, which seems to be requested by the fans.

[Woolfe]

The good thing about that is I get to kill the nasties in Murderopolis, but then have to think about and maybe talk out a better solution for Goodfield.

I like it. And I hate it for making me think that slavers are anything other than scum...

Slavers kinda are scum, they take away the freedom of another sentient being and use it for personal gain. The problem is, after the end of modern civilization everyone is scum, because all those rigidly enforced taboos aren't enforced at all anymore. It's very much a "what you are in the dark" kind of scenario. This means that there are slavers who are less scummy than non-slavers, it's what they do, not why they do it that's important. A slaver that is kind to the slaves, discriminating in the buyer, and does his work to make sure that the slave will be useful and obedient without destroying any essential parts of the self and letting them retain their identity is a much better person than a group of well-armed vagabonds running around doing odd jobs and rummaging around in people's houses, and killing people for money/stuff/no reason despite the whole "I sell people for profit" thing.

Yes true, but law and order didn't just exist. We implemented it. Humans are by nature Social beings. We build societies. These societies often have lots of problems, but at the heart of it they are still societies.

There would be small towns, or groups of survivors, who like the Army engineers that became the Desert Rangers in the original game, will build their own laws and attempt to enforce them on the local populace. Some will be benvolent, others will not.
I don't disagree that the slaver in question could have good intentions, but he is still selling people for profit. That one isn't as grey as it might appear. A slaver is a slaver is a slaver. This slaver might be able to be convinced to give up his task. But whilst he is at it, he is still bad IMO. And that colours those who buy from him as well. Slavery is bad...

[Azriel]

I'm reminded of Fallout 3's salvery. I was really into that at first, it seemed really interesting. But it just fell flat. The slavers need to be a bit more "deep" than "evil bad men profiting by kidnapping people and selling them into slavery" and if you're allowed to help slavers, there should be some obvious reason for doing so. A good example is selling your captured enemies into slavery? You make money, you punish your enemies, but maybe this decision isn't all that moral. Maybe it has unintended consequences.

Have different types of slaves and slavers. Have the guy that unabashedly a slave owner and dealer, views it as a necessity, but takes good care of his slaves, sells to people who will take good care of them, and trains them in manners complementary to their skills and personality. Contrast this guy with the more generic "go into a town, kill everyone that opposes us, loot everything of value, and chain up the survivors and uses them in mines and brothels, breaking them of any will" types. Then have factions relating to these groups view them differently, like the small district town of Goodfield hates both of them but the nearby district of Utilitarianism only like the guy because he's giving these people purpose and safety before injecting them into an understanding economy, while the wretched hive of Murderopolis hate the guy for not selling to them, while encouraging the raiders.

In short; make it morally grey and varied.

Agreed

[MDF_MadDogFargo]

I added Slave as a social skill into my skills system:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=856

"Featured skill: Slave (3 INT). Slave is a social skill. You practice it working. Slaves help at work, but it does not raise their morale. Slaves ignore morale; they don't gain any or lose any, unless they die. As they raise skill levels, they do better work and gain extra HP. They don't talk much. Slaves will not run from combat. Since they don't lose any morale, your party will not lose their morale no matter how bad the slave is hurt. A good strategy might be to fight with a lot of slaves, since they gain HP fast and you can't lose their morale. Slaves are followers, they contribute bonuses to command skills Leadership, Seduction, Vampire, Hypnotist, and Zealot. Morale checks for success of Slave rolls, but Slave increments do not raise Morale attribute. Slaves don't raise their social skills as fast as others do, because of their morale handicap."

I'm using Wasteland's rules plus a Morale attribute for my skills system. I haven't worked out all the details yet; nothing is final.

Wasteland is an amoral universe. It doesn't care if you're killing babies, or climbing sand dunes. It doesn't have a moral opinion about slavery. Characters in my imagined game would have individual opinions about slavery; most free people probably wouldn't like it, and there would be abolitionists. It's possible that social skills can be lost or forgotten.

Your definition of slave is too tight. In Roman times for example, many slaves were trusted and even held positions of power. This is partially becuase a valuable slave could expect to one day have freedom.
Also why do they gain HP? I would have thought a slave who didn't get fed well would get Con/Stamina penalties and therefore be low in hp?

But it is deliciously evil. I think I'd have to hunt you down and kill you in the WL universe (damn slavers)

Slaves are supposed to function something like the characters in Wasteland 1, which has no morale. The morale system causes characters to fail and do less damage in stages, and flee battle by Morale 0. If you want to play like Wasteland 1, you make your PCs all slaves. They will let you fight until they die, with no arguments. That's what it's supposed to do. I haven't finished all the skills yet, so I don't exactly know what Slave skill will do to the other social skills to dampen their Morale boosts. All the skills have to stack; their effects can't be exclusive, because there's no preventing any combinations, so every skill has to be unique. Slave is close to Zombie; a little too close. I may need to differentiate them more. (Zombies have zero morale and they can be destroyed and put back together by a Doctor.)

[VaultDwellnChick]

[/quote]
I agree 100% I didn't mean for it to be interpreted as a 'Ultimate Bad Guys' trope, that small army of slaves in the fields is the only thing keeping people from starving! So if you were to choose to support those wanting to emancipate the slaves, they would have freedom yes, but hundreds would starve. Just a quick example.[/quote]

When playing fallout, i always choose to be the hero and save everyone. I prefer the hero path to be harder because you're not just fighting for your own survival but the survival of everyone. Freeing all those slaves could lead to another quest of how to save these people from starving and making them self sufficient. Playing the hero should be harder but open the door for more rewards in the long term by opening more missions that the bad guys wouldn't have been wanted for.

[VaultDwellnChick]

What if there would be be a place in the wasteland where captured raiders, murderers, rapists and other scum are used as slaves? The slave masters would be basically normal, friendly folk, but they use criminals as slave labour, and perhaps also treat them really bad. Could be an interesting moral dilemma if presented well.

That would be a great way to counter not having infrastructure for a prison. I've never played the first game so i'm not 100% what the country looked like, but i would think killing them would be a waste of great resource when they could work instead.

you also have the moral dilemma of whether or not to step in when slaves are being mistreated. In this type of society would you know 100% they were guilty of their crime? If the society they lived in just didn't like this person and set them up?

[Psilos]

Slavery can definitely offer big dilemmas, and whole lot of consequence.
For example you could free a whole town from slavery by killing the slavers, but the city's main trade was in slaves, so no slaves no commerce, no commerce no food and everyone starves. Then you can have stuff like the ex-slaves willingly selling themselves into slavery because they were better treated thanks to their skills etc.. Or even you come back to the city later in the game, and some of the ex-slaves have taken over and re established a slave market.

I really liked the slavery in fallout 2, where on the one hand there were the slavers who just went out, captured savages and sold them as goods, and on the other there was Vault City and their servants, who were basically slaves but it was a very touchy subject and it could get you expelled from the city if you talked of it to the first citizen.