Kickstarter Drive Update #6

[The_A_Drain]

I think the language barrier issue combined with a general "You're either with me or agin me" attitude from the majority of people (I am guilty of this myself I will admit) can produce no further discussion right now, and stooping to simply insulting each other is even less constructive than the previous state of chest thumping and guesswork.

Best guess is that Monday afternoon, we'll see more on the issue directly from inXile.

What I will say, is that further down the line when somebody doesn't like the colour of a pair of boots I don't want to see people asking for their money back. Because if you aren't confident in the project, the next two weeks is your only chance to back out. I am saying this for people's own benefit, because I would not want to give money to a project I wasn't confident in either.

[Brother None]

I hope they're not wasting their time reading and worrying about what's happening in this topic at least...

What's there to read but a bunch of people shouting at each other?

Seriously people, stop this slinging around personal attacks and accusations of trolling. Honestly, everyone should give this a rest until the InXile topic is up. I'm not going to force you by locking the thread, for now, though I might if this keeps up.

[kopi]

It was an interesting concept in the Souls series, but it barely makes sense in those games and would make absolutely none in Wasteland 2, ...

I agree. But what I'm asking myself is, why does brian want this?

If it's so controversial among backers and kickstarter was doing just fine without it, why not just putting it aside?

My guess is because it is actually a pretty neat idea, especially for a console game, but I would consider it not a very practical one for a PC game. Especially if all it's going to be is a message and item delivery service. The Souls games had player invasions and ally summoning to go along with the message stuff, which wouldn't really fit in the offline world of Wasteland. Getting all the network and connection infrastructure in place to make it all function would take a lot of time and resources for ultimately little benefit. I can see the appeal in it, it is a cool idea that has only been done in a couple games, but I really think it's a bad fit for this one, and if this thread is any indication Brian will drop it.

Well, the fact that this game is funded by kickstarter means that he is dependent on backers money. Is he? Except that now with the success of kickstarter, he could pull in big money investors who demand this feature for one reason or another.

[ButchinMelancholy]

I think the language barrier issue

I guess there could be some of it...

[God is Dog backwards]

Brother None, do you know if inXile planning on clarifying this BEFORE kickstarter ends?

I need to know where I stand so I can decide what to do with my pledge. Cheers.

[dnr]

I doubled my pledge. just from what I've seen here and from the interviews from fargo.

I hope I won't be disappointed. but, yeah, I'm willing to take that risk. that's what I'm givin you guys.

good luck. and uh, may your deity of choice speed you on your way.

[Brother None]

Brother None, do you know if inXile planning on clarifying this BEFORE kickstarter ends?

Clarifying what? The social thing? As far as I know, yes. Can't check now, it's the weekend.

[God is Dog backwards]

Brother None, do you know if inXile planning on clarifying this BEFORE kickstarter ends?

Clarifying what? The social thing? As far as I know, yes. Can't check now, it's the weekend.

Yep, that's what I meant - thanks - I'd like this issue to be resolved one way or the other while I have control over my pledge.

[flang]

Reading all these posts is like watching Animal Farm play out before me. We free ourselves from publishers only to find the fan base is just as bad. Some are more equal than others I suppose. If you guys can't have faith in Brian Fargo than what does that say about us as a fan base? We really are awful collectively. We deserve whatever game we get with this kind of attitude. You guys missed the entire point of kickstarter we don't need to be our own EA.

Alright, well... cheer up. There's what, like, a couple dozen of us on here? Out of 30,000 backers and counting? I think Fargo and InXile will be fine. The don't even need to read a single post or comment in these forums if they don't feel like it. They can just isolate for 18 months, make the game however they want it, then push it out the door and tell us to live with it. With a publisher they don't have that option (and the fans still complain just as loudly). I think they are able to appreciate the position they are in here.

So yeah, no need for anyone to get bent up over what anyone here says about anything. Myself included. I was pretty harsh when they first made the update and I'm still worried now, but at the end of the day, there's nothing I or anyone here can do about it. So... life goes on.

[Brother None]

I think Fargo and InXile will be fine. The don't even need to read a single post or comment in these forums if they don't feel like it.

But they are reading, and will keep reading. Because they want to. This has been stated time and time again. They want feedback. They need feedback. That includes a wave of outrage at social features. Insulting language aside, this is the kind of feedback they want on peripheral features that are being discussed (as opposed to core features).

All the people who posted in this thread to be dismissive of "negative attitudes" would do well to remember this. This isn't BioWare and their dismissive attitude towards their own fans. InXile wants feedback, and that includes negative feedback. I know not all of you were around in the Black Isle Studios days, but that's just how it functions.

[ButchinMelancholy]

All the people who posted in this thread to be dismissive of "negative attitudes" would do well to remember this. This isn't BioWare and their dismissive attitude towards their own fans. InXile wants feedback, and that includes negative feedback. I know not all of you were around in the Black Isle Studios days, but that's just how it functions.

And anyone leaving "negative" feedback should remember it too. They want us to give our opinion, to be involved, not to drop or worry them as soon as any little thing seems inconvenient for us...

[dnr]

I think Fargo and InXile will be fine. The don't even need to read a single post or comment in these forums if they don't feel like it.

But they are reading, and will keep reading. Because they want to. This has been stated time and time again. They want feedback. They need feedback. That includes a wave of outrage at social features. Insulting language aside, this is the kind of feedback they want on peripheral features that are being discussed (as opposed to core features).

All the people who posted in this thread to be dismissive of "negative attitudes" would do well to remember this. This isn't BioWare and their dismissive attitude towards their own fans. InXile wants feedback, and that includes negative feedback. I know not all of you were around in the Black Isle Studios days, but that's just how it functions.

is it opposite day or what. I really want to stop giving feedback because I think I've said everything I needed to say in this and previous threads but I keep getting drawn back into it.

I have a good feeling about this.

[harborpirate]

I'm trying to convey to a group of highly emotional individuals that in their minds, things will only get worse and that if they want to take back their money, do so now.

It would be nice if we could be better than the publishers, and cut Brian and his team some slack rather than getting all up in his face about it. Maybe he actually knows what he's doing? Remember, we're funding Brian's vision of the game, not ours. The whole point was to free him of the restriction of people that would tell him what he can and can't do, and threaten to pull funding if he didn't do it a certain way. Sound familiar?

This is the Internet though, so we know how that goes. People would get mad if Brian told us that the lead character will have red boots.
"You said you hated red boots! I can't believe this! The whole reason I signed up was that you said you were against red boots. I'm pulling my backing!"
"I hate all boots. I'm totally against them in principle. I know he's saying boots are optional, but if boots are in the game at all, I don't want it."

[flang]

I think Fargo and InXile will be fine. The don't even need to read a single post or comment in these forums if they don't feel like it.

But they won't. Because they don't want to. This has been stated time and time again. They want feedback. They need feedback. That includes a wave of outrage at social features. Insulting language aside, this is the kind of feedback they want on peripheral features that are being discussed (as opposed to core features).

All the people who posted in this thread to be dismissive of negative people would do well to remember this. This isn't BioWare and their dismissive attitude towards their own fans. InXile wants feedback, and that includes negative feedback. I know not all of you were around in the Black Isle Studios days, but that's just how it functions.

Agreed. I was just saying - because it looks like a few folks are ready to throw in the towel at this back-and-forth here - there's no need to worry about how the dev team are taking any of this. For them, it's not orders and ultimatums being issued by their bosses, just strongly-worded concerns from a few people with a little skin in the game. If Fargo could handle a decade of rejection from dismissive publishers, he's not going to be shaken from a few days of fan complaints.

And yeah, speaking for myself anyway, there's many many years of seeing RPGs slowly get diluted, dumbed-down, DLC'd and DRM'd by Bioware and the rest of the lot into the sad existence they are in today. That's generally what's fueling my push back against this latest idea. I know it won't destroy the game; I just would rather not even take a step down that road unless it's really critical.

[Dark Like Snipes]

Well, the fact that this game is funded by kickstarter means that he is dependent on backers money. Is he? Except that now with the success of kickstarter, he could pull in big money investors who demand this feature for one reason or another.

Him and his team are going to be relying solely on kickstarter funds, yes. Could investors swoop in and offer him a huge investment, unlikely as it is? Maybe, I'm not too sure what the legal ramifications are between kickstarter projects and other investment firms, but it would be a huge dick move on Fargo's part if he accepted, which makes it pretty damned unlikely even if kickstarter contracts don't forbid it. Going with a publisher would violate the spirit of the old style RPG, since they would want to make numerous changes and modern "updates" in an attempt to make the game profitable, and is not what Fargo is envisioning. Watch the video they made for the initial kickstarter post for Wasteland 2 to get a better idea of why he doesn't want to work with a big brand publisher for this game.

[mindx2]

I know it won't destroy the game; I just would rather not even take a step down that road unless it's really critical.

Amen! My feelings as well

[stonetoes]

I'm not going to force you by locking the thread, for now, though I might if this keeps up.

So pretty much like the GLBT topic? Don't warn the people making attacks, or temp-ban them, or tell them to leave the thread, just...lock the thread completely?

I know you're just one mod, but come on, there's room for a civil discussion here.

[flang]

Him and his team are going to be relying solely on kickstarter funds, yes. Could investors swoop in and offer him a huge investment, unlikely as it is? Maybe, I'm not too sure what the legal ramifications are between kickstarter projects and other investment firms

I've been curious as to that aspect of Kickstarter as well. Not really in relation to Wasteland 2 (as you've said, I can't imagine why InXile would bother with it since the KS funds will be enough to make the game already), but more specifically with something like The Banner Saga (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/stoic/the-banner-saga). Those guys only asked for $100,000 total to make their own tactical-RPG complete with hand-drawn 2D animation. I'm not familiar with how much games like that cost, but I've got to believe it's going to be many times more than a measly hundred grand. I hope they're not putting themselves at risk of collecting the money from backers, but then end up not having enough to actually finish the game.

[The_A_Drain]

Him and his team are going to be relying solely on kickstarter funds, yes. Could investors swoop in and offer him a huge investment, unlikely as it is? Maybe, I'm not too sure what the legal ramifications are between kickstarter projects and other investment firms

I've been curious as to that aspect of Kickstarter as well. Not really in relation to Wasteland 2 (as you've said, I can't imagine why InXile would bother with it since the KS funds will be enough to make the game already), but more specifically with something like The Banner Saga (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/stoic/the-banner-saga). Those guys only asked for $100,000 total to make their own tactical-RPG complete with hand-drawn 2D animation. I'm not familiar with how much games like that cost, but I've got to believe it's going to be many times more than a measly hundred grand. I hope they're not putting themselves at risk of collecting the money from backers, but then end up not having enough to actually finish the game.

Every project is at risk of this unfortunately. Although if I recall correctly Banner Saga is being made by an ex Bioware guy who had done some major work for them for a long time and probably has a decent stash of his own money put aside and possibly some external funding in additional to the kickstarter money ( Kickstarter does not forbid you to get additional funding from external sources I'm fairly certain although I've not read the fineprint, but I have seen other projects get external funding, as well as this one with the paypal button in addition )

It's being made in a converted goat shed that I think he owns haha, so that should save him a bit of money It also helps if he's not taking a wage from it but living off his own savings, that way he can spend every penny on assets and when it's just him working on it (provided his savings don't run out) he's not actually spending any money.

I've seen a fair few projects work like this, although mostly smaller iPhone stuff on budgets of around 20-50 grand.

Edit: Very very small projects also have the advantage that they don't have lots of employees to pay and can make the money last longer by using freelance workers. But this comes with it's own downsides and often makes projects take a lot longer to complete.

[kopi]

Well, the fact that this game is funded by kickstarter means that he is dependent on backers money. Is he? Except that now with the success of kickstarter, he could pull in big money investors who demand this feature for one reason or another.

Him and his team are going to be relying solely on kickstarter funds, yes. Could investors swoop in and offer him a huge investment, unlikely as it is? Maybe, I'm not too sure what the legal ramifications are between kickstarter projects and other investment firms, but it would be a huge dick move on Fargo's part if he accepted, which makes it pretty damned unlikely even if kickstarter contracts don't forbid it. Going with a publisher would violate the spirit of the old style RPG, since they would want to make numerous changes and modern "updates" in an attempt to make the game profitable, and is not what Fargo is envisioning. Watch the video they made for the initial kickstarter post for Wasteland 2 to get a better idea of why he doesn't want to work with a big brand publisher for this game.

Dick move or not, thats what's gonna happen with kickstarter games, maybe not with this one, but with a lot of others. FTL just signed a deal with Valve.

And investors don't necessarily have to be publishers, could be anyone. You know, doing alittle data mining and market research on the side (thats how facebook makes money).