No Quest Compass

[Sobboth]

Frankly, it's not nearly as odious as people like to pretend it is. If you know where you are, and you know where your target is, having the game tell you that your target is east of you when it's east of you isn't exactly hand holding.

Letting the game making you know you must go somewhere east of your curret location is of course a necessity.
But a quest compass which show you the location of your target is horrible because it kills exploration and the satisfaction of finding your target.
That and like other said you must design the game/quest differently in a good way.

[golgepapaz]

Not as such. It's not turn-by-turn navigation. If you need to go to Random Cave, the mark will point to the cave entrance. If there's a mountain between you and the cave, it'll point to the cave, not to the route you need to take to get around the mountain.

Frankly, it's not nearly as odious as people like to pretend it is. If you know where you are, and you know where your target is, having the game tell you that your target is east of you when it's east of you isn't exactly hand holding. But then again, I guess there were people who liked buying up reams of graph paper to make their own maps and who still bitch about how Bard's Tale 3 ruined everything by introducing automapping.

How do you mean?. It's exactly like that. You get a compass to city, when you get there you get a compass marker to building the person residing in or to person itself if he is out and someplace else. You get to him and if he sends you another way, you get another compass marker to that person. if the said person send you to fetch an item you get a compass marker to that item. After a while you notice you have become just a drone following compass markers on the map because there is not any other way.
As per your mountain example,since now you've become a drone, in order to get the to cave (If you haven't unlocked a closer point on map) you just bunny hop 80 degrees slope of the mountain (which you totally can, if you strafe some.) because you follow the direct line and it doesn't even occur to you find a reasonable path..

[Vryheid]

I'm gonna have to disagree.

The quest compass's purpose is to help you keep track of moving targets.
Nothing is more infuriating than spending an hour trying to track down a moving quest target, especially when you give NPCs a schedule and make them move around all the time.

How much of this is really due to NPCs just not being self aware of their own community? In a more realistic game, if I had to find an NPC that moved around a lot, I could come up to another NPC on the street and ask something like, "Hey, I have a delivery for somebody named Avernus. You know where I could find him?" And they'd tell me, "He usually hangs around in the bar at this hour, you should check there." And suddenly I solved this relatively simple problem of tracking someone down through dialogue rather than a psychic quest marker.

If it's done right I think it really would not require that much more effort on the part of the player and would end up feeling much more immersive.

[Bryce777]

everyone hates quest compass and it only makes sense in first person game where instructions for quests are stupid IE bethes DUH.

[Signal]

I don't have anything against quest compasses, per say, aside from they feel like they're "holding your hand" too much. But if Wasteland 2 opts not to have quest compasses, I would at least like some kind of system in place to "point me in the right direction," as it were. No, I'm not asking for something to pinpoint the exact location of a quest objective. All I'm asking for is just a general idea where the objective is. If we have a quest tracker of some kind, it should mention that we should go "somewhere in the vicinity of (insert town name here)," and perhaps a circle will pop up around the entire city on the world map to get us going to the right spot and start looking around.

[madmax]

I don't have anything against quest compasses, per say, aside from they feel like they're "holding your hand" too much. But if Wasteland 2 opts not to have quest compasses, I would at least like some kind of system in place to "point me in the right direction," as it were. No, I'm not asking for something to pinpoint the exact location of a quest objective. All I'm asking for is just a general idea where the objective is. If we have a quest tracker of some kind, it should mention that we should go "somewhere in the vicinity of (insert town name here)," and perhaps a circle will pop up around the entire city on the world map to get us going to the right spot and start looking around.

If you get stuck I'm sure there will be plenty of hints and walkthroughs on the web. I don't think there's a need to build it into the game.

You will of course be given clues in the game where to go in text form. But putting it on a map seems unnecessary i think. I'd rather be forced to explore it instead and then suddenly come upon it. That gives me a huge sense of joy when I finally find it

[Brother None]

Fargo on Quest compass

One of the many hot topics on the forum right now is that of quest compasses. Many games that adopt this practice neglect alternative methods of informing the player where to go. If you were to include navigational aids as an option, would you ensure that adequate directions are provided by other means to make it feasible to play without them?

BF: I guess my take on this is that we should design the game 100% in a way that no compass would be needed. It seems cheap to rely on a compass because we forgot to give enough clues. Now MAYBE at the end we throw out the concept of allowing it as an option for players who are a little lazy...MAYBE. This is the kind of broad stroke idea that I would want to throw out to the players I care most about to solicit feedback from.

And more

Will the game contain a quest compass?

We have no plans for a quest compass. We are designing this game to maximize exploration and discovery and through good design it should work fine. I like the tension of wandering off and stumbling upon random encounters... makes you pay attention. I made one comment that IF for some reason despite everything people are complaining about getting lost all the time then maybe we would look into ways to counter that. We are not making this game to try to appeal to a mass market and it has always served me well to assume the audience is smart.

[undecaf]

Fargo on Quest compass

One of the many hot topics on the forum right now is that of quest compasses. Many games that adopt this practice neglect alternative methods of informing the player where to go. If you were to include navigational aids as an option, would you ensure that adequate directions are provided by other means to make it feasible to play without them?

BF: I guess my take on this is that we should design the game 100% in a way that no compass would be needed. It seems cheap to rely on a compass because we forgot to give enough clues. Now MAYBE at the end we throw out the concept of allowing it as an option for players who are a little lazy...MAYBE. This is the kind of broad stroke idea that I would want to throw out to the players I care most about to solicit feedback from.

And more

Will the game contain a quest compass?

We have no plans for a quest compass. We are designing this game to maximize exploration and discovery and through good design it should work fine. I like the tension of wandering off and stumbling upon random encounters... makes you pay attention. I made one comment that IF for some reason despite everything people are complaining about getting lost all the time then maybe we would look into ways to counter that. We are not making this game to try to appeal to a mass market and it has always served me well to assume the audience is smart.

Good to hear they have the right mindset and sensibilities with this issue.

[Vryheid]

BF: I guess my take on this is that we should design the game 100% in a way that no compass would be needed. It seems cheap to rely on a compass because we forgot to give enough clues.

Well this is a fair middle ground in my opinion. It certainly beats the Baldur's Gate approach of giving you a vague objective and expecting you to search every square inch of miles of countryside to find what you're looking for, or the Fallout 3 approach of total hand holding. I trust that quest dialogue will the be written coherently enough to direct us where we need to go.

We are designing this game to maximize exploration and discovery and through good design it should work fine. I like the tension of wandering off and stumbling upon random encounters... makes you pay attention.

Sounds to me like this is also a pretty clear hint that the game isn't going to have a dual scale environment, but that's another subject entirely.

[Lucius]

I'm glad to hear that and I agree with exactly what Brian Fargo is saying. If the game is written well, there is no need for a map marker. Of course the in game dialogue should be stored somewhere for easy reference, like a journal. I wouldn't want to have to write down on paper every instruction ever given, but that's another topic.

[EcoGuy]

Woo Hoo ... No quest compass. Nothing ticks me off more than simply connecting the dots. The compass just turns even sand box games into connect the dots and I hate that, especially when it directs you to the very chest in a town you haev never even been in before.

I have no problem with allowing the individual player to mark the map as a guide but the game should not do it automatically.

ALSO, I am not quite sure where to post this but it is akin to quest markers. One of the things I loved about the original wasteland is that your were never prompted when to take actions. The player had to decide if and when to use a skill, item or attribute like perception, or a shovel, etc. Most modern titles even hold you hand to do this with glowing sprites to open this or when you are close to something a button pops up prompting you to hit it. I always hate that. I remember in the old RPGs searching each and every wall for that secret passage.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE stick with the old ways make us work to find that secret passage or try to open things, leave out the prompts!

[Haggbart]

I don't think it's necessarily a question of yes/no, I would like the answer to be: in some isolated cases, where it's logical that the character would know exactly where to go.

A big YES to a comprehensive quest journal (with a decent index), also YES to be able to insert your own notes and mark the map for your own reference. Remembering details in conversations or making paper notes should NOT be a part of gaming in 2012.

[EcoGuy]

I'm not actually that opposed to paper notes. It worked in the old school games but I also remember getting lost and having to go back and remember who told me what so I can find out what I missed. But again that was part of the fun of the game trying to decide what was important to remember and write down and what wasn't.

Maybe there is a balance that can be struck but most games today whether they call themselves open-ended, sandbox, etc, are still linear with lots of prompts to push you through the game even down to the tiniest detail. I would like a challenge and that would be refreshing and maybe the concept will even be picked up by others.

[Frogacuda]

I'm a supporter of the quest compass. It's too easy to lose track without it.

If there is no quest compass, there needs to at least be a very good journal system, because some of these old RPGs, if I stop playing for a couple weeks, I'm hopelessly lost when I start them up again and I'll never finish it. There needs to be a way to find out where you have to go, whether it's a compass or a less direct solution.

[KrystianGalaj]

There needs to be a way to find out where you have to go, whether it's a compass or a less direct solution.

Notes, on paper, always worked for me.

[mindx2]

Another big NO on a quest compass. A good journal writing down directions from an NPC or other type of clue giver is adequate. I also don't exactly want step-by-step directions from these either but general style hints that just "point you in the right direction." Maybe even have some give misdirections but enable us to figure out different "clues" and tell that this is what they are try to do. Many different possibilities that don't include a big neon sign saying "Follow me!"

[riprjak]

Yes, a big "NO" to quest compass and self-solving gameplay would be appreciated.
Generic, inaccurate hints about where to find something/someone? Sure.
A big glowing arrow leading the way? Fuck that shit.

What he said!

[presence]

I don't care for the quest compass idea, but I do expect a compass. My character will know if hes going south, north, west, east or some other direction. Sure, it might be easy to denote if up is always north, but I would like to have some idea of how large the world is around me, and how far things are from each other. Wasteland really had no problem with this, as it was all on a grid. If the new wasteland has a grid, then maybe its no problem at all.

With that in mind, be careful of putting the players in a situation where they are combing the desert ala spaceballs. The last thing I want to do is have to look in every single grid hex/square to find an item. The original wasteland handled this with perception, and I don't see a reason to change this. Just make it possible to notice things from multiple hexes/squares away. If its a car, I should be able to see it from a a good distance away if I'm in the plains. I shouldn't have to be in its exact square to notice it. In a forest, its obviously harder. If its a watch, I should be able to notice it from a distance as well, especially if its made of metal and glass and light is available.

An interactive map where you can annotate locations and events would be extremely useful. Numbers on the map associate with journal entries. I don't want to have to remember that the junkyard dog I made friends with last week within the game is in a specific place a month later in real-time when I can resume playing after I had to abandon it due to real life circumstances. I should be able to look at my map and journal and know where my player is and what he is trying to accomplish.

Sure, keep the fog of war on the map. Let me know only what I have previously experienced. Ultimately, if you hide the location of said dog, and its important to me or the game to find it, two things can happen. 1) I will search the web/community to find out where he is, which may be fruitful, but probably won't be time reasonable, or 2) My character will scrub the world looking for the dog, ultimately making me want to quit the game.

[mindx2]

I don't care for the quest compass idea, but I do expect a compass. My character will know if hes going south, north, west, east or some other direction.

I would expect that part to be a given. I would also like to annotate my map and maybe have a NPC "mark it" with a general location depending on the quest/ situation.

[Smash]

Without reading the whole thread there should be some distinction drawn.

No magical floating arrow on UIs seems reasonable, but having to rely solely on how you interpret text in a journal is just stupid.

Why can't I have a map that a quest giver could draw on? Sure they may not know, and if that's the cast, then fine. However excluding options available to anyone with some charcoal and a piece of paper seems masochistic to me.