We want your feedback on the Kickstarter Rewards

[TwinkieGorilla]

I think you're still missing the context, Twinkie. We're not talking about how Kickstarter works here, we're talking about how the game industry works, and whether or not "exclusive pre-order DLC", which this will be equated with, is good PR for a small Kickstarter project like this. As you can tell from the way people are responding...it isn't. And that's worth discussing, and exactly what InXile wants is for people to share their unfettered opinions on such elements of Kickstarter tiers here, so they don't mess it up once it goes live.

If they are going to do preorder DLC, this thread has at least taught them that the presentation will be pretty key.

Yes. But this isn't the game industry. This is crowdfunding. And this is how crowdfunding works. You all need to change the way you are viewing this. I know you're all (painfully obviously) new to this sort of thing but stop expecting orange juice from an apple.

[Jozape]

Not everyone that would be interested in Wasteland 2 is aware of the game or even alive. Wasteland came out 2 years before I was even born, hehe.

And? My band funded a recording with Kickstarter. One of the tiers was an extra track not available anywhere else. Nobody cried about it. It just was what it was. Exclusivity. That's part of the allure of the tiers. If you were around and part of something, hey...look! Bonus for you. If not? So what. You guys are insane.

And the fact that you had a band that could do that kind of thing means you're old enough to understand that just because nobody complained in your KickStarter, that doesn't mean that people in another KickStarter unrelated to music won't complain.

If nobody cares about it, why would it be a good incentive to get anyone to fund the game?

Don't twist my words. I meant who cares about whether or not it is in the game or outside of the game.[/quote]

I'm not trying to twist your words, sorry. I just thought you meant something else. Anyways, there are lots of people that care whether it's in-game or not. Just go look at the Mass Effect 3 forums. People are complaining that they need to pay $800 or something for all the DLC to have the 'total Mass Effect 3 experience'. Of course that's ridiculous, as most of these DLCs are just weapons that don't really make it meaningfully different. But people whine regardless and it's bad for BioWare's image.

[TwinkieGorilla]

Just go look at the Mass Effect 3 forums. People are complaining that they need to pay $800 or something for all the DLC to have the 'total Mass Effect 3 experience'. Of course that's ridiculous, as most of these DLCs are just weapons that don't really make it meaningfully different. But people whine regardless and it's bad for BioWare's image.

Not even CLOSE to the same scenario. Not even CLOSE.

[Brother None]

But InXile isn't selling to "the crowdfunding people", they're selling to "the cynical, weary videogame crowd". DoubleFine got where it was due to hype building within the videogame media and people, not by appealing to existing groups on Kickstarter. The same will be true for InXile. This isn't a "typical" Kickstarter appeal, really, nor was DoubleFine. You have to keep PR in mind as it will be covered by a large amount of websites and discussed by different crowds of people. Is this forum representative of all of them? Probably not. But while InXile might keep pre-order DLC in, they should at least know from this thread to present it right and clarify that it is extra, jokey stuff (as in Toast Repair and gold-plated uzi), and not the type of game-breaking preorder DLC that has been ruining BioWare game balance for years now.

And no, you can't ignore what happened with Mass Effect 3 when discussing this. Not because it's the same thing in practice, but because it will be received as similar in how it's marketed.

[TwinkieGorilla]

But InXile isn't selling to "the crowdfunding people", they're selling to "the cynical, weary videogame crowd"...Not because it's the same thing in practice, but because it will be received as similar in how it's marketed.

Oh for fucks sake. I hear you, find it lamentable, and give up. My sincere condolences to Fargo & Co. for having to appeal to the lot of you.

[Skirge]

Hopefully we can all keep the discussions civil, even for a Wasteland. If you're a fan of the original, you have to be an adult by now, so I hope everyone can start acting like they are, even if not everyone here actually is. Opinions are the entire point of this thread, but let's all remember we're here to get this game made in the first place. The tiers are meaningless if they don't reach their goal, as is everything else on this entire forum.

With that out of the way, the tiers are carrots to get more people to donate. Now, for me, I was planning to donate $250 because I want the game to be made not because of any bonus material. That has not changed since they announced the potential tiers. My sole concern at this point is that my game can be played without an internet connection and I can install it as many times as I want. If I get that, they have my $250. I don't need the other stuff that comes along with it, but I won't turn it down either. Hell, I'll trade in all the swag for that one thing I truly want.

[Temaperacl]

The only other thing that strikes me is to clarify the "Previous Rewards"

For every tier, you receive everything included in the previous tiers plus a new reward. No, the rewards don't stack.That's basic Kickstarter 101.

As someone who hasn't done anything with Kickstarter before, I've looked some on the site, both in general and at the DF one, and I wasn't able to find something that clarifies this and it isn't obvious, at least to me. Maybe I'm just blind, but I also shouldn't have to dig for that information - if I'm looking to put money in for a project, I should be able to tell directly from the description what I should be expecting. Your post is also somewhat unclear, since it implies both:

For every tier, you receive everything included in the previous tiers plus a new reward.

This would imply everything does stack, which is the opposite of your second sentence:

No, the rewards don't stack.That's basic Kickstarter 101.

If they don't stack, that would be 5 digital copies at the $1000 mark
If they do stack that would be 7 digital copies(+ the steam one) at the $1000 mark.

From a clarity perspective, adding the word "additional" would help if they do stack - ("You’ll also receive an additional 5 digital copies of the game") or "total" ("You’ll receive a total of 5 digital copies of the game" or "You’ll receive 3 more copies of the game for a total of 5 digital copies of the game") if they don't.

Will it matter for what level I choose? Probably (almost certainly) not. But it would matter for what my expectations of what I get at that level would be.

[makagulfazel]

I'd like to file this complaint under "Not Care". It's a single player game. Since it's not a major gameplay feature, it'd be easy to avoid use the exclusive skills/items if you feel that strongly about it.
Do I like this marketing practice? No. But on the spectrum of benign to outrageous, this type of exclusive would be at the same area of the spectrum as a lame janitor.

[TwinkieGorilla]

Really not that hard to intuit, man. Let's for instance this:

Tier 1: digital download

Tier 2: cd + digital download

Tier 3: cd w/bonus track + digital download

Tier 3: action figure of TwinkieGorilla, cd w/bonus track + digital download

Make sense?

Maka, please explain what you don't like about this "marketing practice". Please also explain how it is a marketing practice and not a really great way for artists to interact directly with their fans while cutting out the middle man.

[Grim Monk]

Here are my expanded thoughts on the Rewards:

(1) Signed/Collectible printed Novella for pledgers, a digital version can be given away/sold latter so general public doesn't miss out.

(2) Printed Manual on $50 & $100 Level should be the same, none of this ("with back story") stuff.
The premium box, miniature, and badge should be incentive enough.

(3) Special "Donor" Skills & Weapons should be avoided, unless purely cosmetic.
Example with Toaster Repair:
(You easily fasten the toaster in place to start work on it.)
(It look like there's a piece of paper stuck inside the toaster.)
(You read: Thank you for your generosity, without it this we would have never existed!!!)
(Your Ranger feels puzzled by the cryptic message, and uneasy chill runs down his spine.)
(He wonders if he'll ever discover its true meaning...)

(4) People donate enough to get a boxed copy should be able to download the digital version.
That way they don't have to wait for shipping.

(5) Just a cool idea but, maybe you could include a version of the soundtrack on one of these...

Is seems like an nice way to add additional 1980's theme.

Edit:
(6) Again, please provide an alternative for people who don't want to use Steamworks.

[DarkTwinkie]

I really hope they're listening to this feedback.

Don't worry, we are

[makagulfazel]

Maka, please explain what you don't like about this "marketing practice". Please also explain how it is a marketing practice and not a really great way for artists to interact directly with their fans while cutting out the middle man.

The marketing practice of giving in-game exclusives for preorders or only through certain vendors. I wasn't talking about Kickstarter, but the exclusive skill and item offered for helping fund the project that people are riled up about. This is pretty damn harmless, though, since it's a single player game that you can choose to do what you want with.
I don't like DRM or exclusives in general, but Steam(one time activation, unlimited installs, offline mode available) and free exclusives for a single player game don't bother me the slightest. Active connection DRM and multiplayer exclusives are a whole different story.

[Eric]

I agree that the skill/item should be cosmetic or not really affect the game at all. But I don't think they should remove it. You have to think of it like this. This is a 100% fan-funded project. First they have to get their goal to even get the game off the ground. The more money they get after that will add to the polish, graphics, etc in theory making it a better game. The more people who fund it = the better the finished result should be. There are people out there that will donate just because of the special item/skill, maybe they like that kind of thing, maybe they don't know much about wasteland 2 and are worried about the game turning out to be bad.

This is a lot different than a pre-order. Pre-orders aren't going to help fund a game, the funding for the game is already there. This is basically the developer saying "Thank you for having faith in us and our game, thank you for giving us your hard earned money on game which you only know the title to and a little information on. Without you this game literally wouldn't have been possible". Do you think when this game releases people are going to say "What the fuck, the people who funded and made this game possible got a little something extra, this is bullshit, boycott this game!" Well possibly, but I personally don't want to change something because someone who didn't have enough faith in this game doesn't get a small in-game token of gratitude. And to be honest you think the people who didn't hear about the kickstarter project, didn't read the news about the Wasteland 2 project that will undoubtedly be posted on gaming news and blog sites, or didn't care about it, and suddenly see Wasteland 2 on Steam will think "I'm not going to get the full experience that the people funded it do, Fuck this!" Nope, they will probably not even know about the bonus we got since they didn't even know about the Kickstarter project.

TLDR - We are the ones making the game possible, putting our faith in a game that hasn't even started yet. Its way different than a preorder. People who don't hear of this game until release or after won't know about the kickstarter project and if they did they had a chance to donate too.

[TwinkieGorilla]

The marketing practice of giving in-game exclusives for preorders or only through certain vendors.

So if the whole basis of Kickstarter is giving people an incentive to pledge more money to fund a project, would people be happier if $15 gets you only the game and...say...$20 gets you a special skill/weapon? I mean, again, the whole point of Kickstarter is to give bonuses with each tier. Really trying to understand all you cynical gamerfolk. There's got to be a way in which this is all presented which doesn't offend your DLC opinions (which this really isn't comparable to anyway). EDIT: or is it simply just that there is something available in-game ONLY to Kickstarter pledgers? Because that's just...that just means you guys are missing the point of Kickstarter and are confusing this process with your hatred of DLC.

This is a lot different than a pre-order. Pre-orders aren't going to help fund a game, the funding for the game is already there. This is basically the developer saying "Thank you for having faith in us and our game, thank you for giving us your hard earned money on game which you only know the title to and a little information on. Without you this game literally wouldn't have been possible". Do you think when this game releases people are going to say "What the fuck, the people who funded and made this game possible got a little something extra, this is bullshit, boycott this game!" Well possibly, but I personally don't want to change something because someone who didn't have enough faith in this game doesn't get a small in-game token of gratitude. And to be honest you think the people who didn't hear about the kickstarter project, didn't read the news about the Wasteland 2 project that will undoubtedly be posted on gaming news and blog sites, or didn't care about it, and suddenly see Wasteland 2 on Steam will think "I'm not going to get the full experience that the people funded it do, Fuck this!" Nope, they will probably not even know about the bonus we got since they didn't even know about the Kickstarter project.

TLDR - We are the ones making the game possible, putting our faith in a game that hasn't even started yet. Its way different than a preorder. People who don't hear of this game until release or after won't know about the kickstarter project and if they did they had a chance to donate too.

FINALLY.

[Temaperacl]

Really not that hard to intuit, man. Let's for instance this:

Tier 1: digital download

Tier 2: cd + digital download

Tier 3: cd w/bonus track + digital download

Tier 3: action figure of TwinkieGorilla, cd w/bonus track + digital download

Make sense?

Yes and no - If I am interpreting this correctly, types stack, but values within a type don't?

If this is the case, it makes sense, but it still isn't clear what the "same type" of item is. For example, how do things like boxed versions stack, How about the Medal of Honors?
For the boxes, is it a progression Boxed->Collectors->Signed Collectors, or are they different "types" and so you get Boxed + Collectors + Signed Collectors?

Basically, the items break out like this (or is there a different breakdown?):
(A) Steam copy of the game
(B) Special Skill/Weapon
(D) Soundtrack
(E) Boxed Copy of Wasteland
(F) Episodic Novellas
(G) Early Beta
(H) Collector's Edition
(I) Name in Credits
(J) Collectible Coin
(K) Autographed Box
(L) Digital Downloads
(M) Medal of Honor, Level 1
(N) Medal of Honor, Level 2
(O) Medal of Honor, Level 3
(P) Medal of Honor, Level 4
(Q) Medal of Honor, Level 5
(R) Medal of Honor, Level 6
(S) Survival Kit
(T) Become NPC/Location/Weapon in the game
(U) Exploded Blood Sausage
(V) Statue in Game
(W) Concept Art
(X) Private Party
(Y) Shrine

So the first few tiers are pretty clear:

$15: A,B
$30: A,B,D
$50: A,B,D,E (Or do you even lose A in place of E at this tier?)
$75: A,B,D,E,F,G
But then it gets more questionable:
$100: A,B,D,E,F,G,H,I or A,B,D,F,G,H,I?
$150: A,B,D,E,F,G,H,I,J or A,B,D,F,G,H,I,J?
$250: A,B,D,E,F,G,H,I,J,K,L,M or B,D,F,G,I,J,K,M?
$500: A,B,D,E,F,G,H,I,J,K,L,M,N,S or B,D,F,G,I,J,K,N,S? or a different combination?
$1000: A,B,D,E,F,G,H,I,J,K,L,M,N,O,S,T or B,D,F,G,I,J,K,O,S,T? or a different combination?
$2500: $1000 (whatever it is), U, P
$5000: Is V of the same "type" and not stacking with T, or is it both?
$10000: Is Y the same type as V (and T?)?

[TwinkieGorilla]

I would assume that with each tier you get everything previously listed plus the new bonus item unless something becomes redundant (i.e. "CD" being replaced with "CD with bonus track").

[Temaperacl]

I would assume that with each tier you get everything previously listed plus the new bonus item unless something becomes redundant (i.e. "CD" being replaced with "CD with bonus track").

That makes sense, but it should be clarified in the description - what makes what redundant? Some of them are obvious (2 digital downloads -> 5 digital downloads. Maybe Level 1 Medal of Honor -> Level 2 Medal of Honor?), but some aren't nearly so clear to me (Steam version -> Boxed Version, Boxed->Collectors->Signed, Statue->Shrine).

So it seems to me that some additional clarity could help or at least prevent heartache when someone realized that they don't actually get 2 collectors edition which means if they want to read that special manual inside they will have to open their signed collectors edition that they didn't want to open. Even if you used the same wording on the main list, having a separate table available (linked or whatever) that indicated exactly what you got at each level without referring to the previous level would enable someone who wanted to figure that out without misunderstanding.

[Ausir]

I agree with Twinkie. A bonus skill or weapon for people who help fund the game is something different from having e.g. a Wal-Mart exclusive armor and a Steam exclusive weapon on preorder. I don't really care about such DLC myself much, but I don't really see the harm in it either.

[TwinkieGorilla]

So it seems to me that some additional clarity could help

Good point, I suppose. I mean even if one person is confused (unless they're, you know...a bit slow) then it should be said that a bit of clarity is needed. That said, I'd assume all editions come with a digital copy and that, for example, the CE replaces the regular boxed edition.

[Skirge]

I really hope they're listening to this feedback.

Don't worry, we are

LOL! Thanks for that.