No connection between IQ and skill points

[TiLT]

One thing that has always annoyed me a bit about both Wasteland and the Fallout games is how the amount of skill points you get is tied to an ability score. In Wasteland this is particularly bad to the point where increasing any other ability scores than IQ is a bad idea, and IQ is the most important stat by far.

The foundation for this concept comes from the theory that intelligent people are more skilled. I challenge this notion. I'm fine with having a stat like IQ set a bar for whether or not you are capable of learning a skill (stuff like hacking into a computer should require a certain level of IQ to even learn in the first place), but not with it determining just how skilled you can become at what you do.

But wait, you say. Wouldn't detaching skill points from IQ mean that your dumb brute is going to be just as skilled as your intelligent scholar? Yes, it would mean exactly that, but in a different way than one might expect. That dumb brute is going to put all his skill points in the skills that make him efficient, such as Brawling, Dodge, Climb, and so on (example skills not necessarily tied to Wasteland 2). If he wants to actually fulfill his role as a brute he's going to need to be good at these things, so that's where most of his skill points will be tied up. He won't qualify for the advanced skills anyway. The scholar on the other hand isn't going to bother with the same skills the brute would, so he's going to put his points into different skills such as Research, Toaster Repair and Clone Tech (once again, example skills only).

If you look closer at Wasteland you'll realize that the designers obviously thought the same way as I do since advanced skills cost more points to increase. While admirable, they're still only treating the symptoms instead of the core problem: IQ shouldn't award skill points! They should come from a different source, most likely levels or a similar concept. Think about it for a second: That intelligent scholar I mentioned earlier could purchase Research, Toaster Repair and Clone Tech... but what if he didn't? What if he decided to purchase Brawling, Dodge and Climb? He'd suddenly be way more skilled at these things than the big brute, and maybe even have skill points left over to purchase his original skills anyway. Does that make sense? Perhaps in a few isolated situations, but not in the majority of cases.

So in short: Give each character the same amount of skill points, regardless of IQ. Give additional skill points per level (or whatever similar concept the game operates with), but this added amount should still be the same for every character. Just make sure that each character archetype will have enough skills suitable for his style that he won't be able to dabble overly much in other fields and still remain great at his core skills.

Thoughts?

[Badunius]

Thoughts?

skill cap based on related stat?
(so brute with low IQ couldn't get high intelegent skill before he raise his IQ)

[TiLT]

I already mentioned that. I said I'm fine with having caps on what IQ you need to purchase a specific skill. You shouldn't cap the maximum potential of a skill based on IQ however.

[moomoos]

I don't agree with you.
High IQ/intelligence should have effect on skills that are technical, verbal etc
High perception and agility should have effect on stuff like stealing and some weapon targeting skills.

I really don't see what you're so upset about.
A high IQ correlates to being overall more skilled on a variety of things.

[TiLT]

I don't agree with you.
High IQ/intelligence should have effect on skills that are technical, verbal etc
High perception and agility should have effect on stuff like stealing and some weapon targeting skills.

That has nothing to do with this thread. Please read my post again. The only thing I'm asking for is that high IQ doesn't give you more points to assign to skills. That's all.

[Arkki-Iljetys]

I didn't play Wasteland, but I agree on the principle. Something like 1/5 of my Fallout characters have had less than 10 intelligence, and after a few quests, they too had ten. Gotta get those skill points.

[moomoos]

I don't agree with you.
High IQ/intelligence should have effect on skills that are technical, verbal etc
High perception and agility should have effect on stuff like stealing and some weapon targeting skills.

That has nothing to do with this thread. Please read my post again. The only thing I'm asking for is that high IQ doesn't give you more points to assign to skills. That's all.

Sorry, I thought you meant how they calculated starting skill values.
I agree that skill points you gain at level up should not have anything to do with intelligence/IQ.

[Badunius]

why not use GURPS approach?
all skills are based on stats,
raising skill that is further from it's base value is more expensive
character points (XP) are used to increase skill value

or

1. every level up character gain 1 + (lvl / 2) (or any other IQ independed value) points that can be spent either on increasing stats or skils
2. every skill is capped by related stat
STR/DEX for combat skills
DEX/PER for stealth skills
INT/CHA for diplomacy skills
INT/PER/DEX for technical/science/survival skills
3. so stats (combined in any way) will define maximal skill value and if you building a fighter and spending all points to raise STR/DEX/combat skills you will have lack of INT and science skills, but still you will be a good fighter

[Signal]

One thing that has always annoyed me a bit about both Wasteland and the Fallout games is how the amount of skill points you get is tied to an ability score.
(snip)
So in short: Give each character the same amount of skill points, regardless of IQ. Give additional skill points per level (or whatever similar concept the game operates with), but this added amount should still be the same for every character. Just make sure that each character archetype will have enough skills suitable for his style that he won't be able to dabble overly much in other fields and still remain great at his core skills.

Thoughts?

I agree.

[Ekaros]

Other way might be using less generalised skill-system. You get points for each stat and can use these only to certain skill and these can overlap. So in the end 10STR and 1INT get same amount of points than 1STR and 10INT, but they can't be spend to same skills.

[Badunius]

or

you could gain sepparate experience in different specialities (combat/stealth/science/medicine) and spend it for raising skills in this specialities.

did we agreed with RPS yet? This discussion becoming more and more vague.

[krellen]

IIRC, IQ and Skill Points were related to learning skills by studying - not to learning skills by doing. The skill points you earned from levelling and increasing your IQ did not tie back to learning skills in the game, but only to libraries (or character creation). So a low-IQ character could still practice their Acrobatics or Rifle skill and get plenty of levels, but if you wanted to study in a library to get better at a skill, high IQ was pretty much required.

And yes, in real life, high intelligence does tie to your ability to translate "book learning" into actual skill. Learning-by-doing works for everyone, but intelligent people can learn by reading as well.

[TiLT]

why not use GURPS approach?

GURPS is well and good (I mean, Fallout was heavily influenced by it), but it can be a bit overkill.

1. every level up character gain 1 + (lvl / 2) (or any other IQ independed value) points that can be spent either on increasing stats or skils
2. every skill is capped by related stat
STR/DEX for combat skills
DEX/PER for stealth skills
INT/CHA for diplomacy skills
INT/PER/DEX for technical/science/survival skills
3. so stats (combined in any way) will define maximal skill value and if you building a fighter and spending all points to raise STR/DEX/combat skills you will have lack of INT and science skills, but still you will be a good fighter

If I understand your suggestion correctly, you're saying that a fighter character should focus more on raising stats, while an intellectual character should focus on leveling skills? If so, the old-school kid in my agrees with you, but my more sensible grown-up mind rebels. Skills (and perks if those are included) are fun! Ability scores are not. This is one of the flaws of old-school RPGs in that fighter types are usually a one-trick pony (they can attack, but not much else) while all the other types of characters get access to the things that are actually fun to use. I say the focus should be exclusively on improving skills (do we even need to increase ability scores during play? Fallout doesn't let you except in rare circumstances) for all character archetypes so everyone has something cool they can do.

Other way might be using less generalised skill-system. You get points for each stat and can use these only to certain skill and these can overlap. So in the end 10STR and 1INT get same amount of points than 1STR and 10INT, but they can't be spend to same skills.

That's almost like individual XP for each ability score. IMO that's just going to confuse most players since there's not much else out there that works in that way. Not to mention that your suggestion could be more or less replicated in a more easy-to-understand way by having things like stat requirements for skills (say, any character can purchase Brawling 1, but only characters with max Strength can purchase Brawling 5). The end result would be much the same, but the method would be simpler.

[TiLT]

IIRC, IQ and Skill Points were related to learning skills by studying - not to learning skills by doing. The skill points you earned from levelling and increasing your IQ did not tie back to learning skills in the game, but only to libraries (or character creation). So a low-IQ character could still practice their Acrobatics or Rifle skill and get plenty of levels, but if you wanted to study in a library to get better at a skill, high IQ was pretty much required.

And yes, in real life, high intelligence does tie to your ability to translate "book learning" into actual skill. Learning-by-doing works for everyone, but intelligent people can learn by reading as well.

You're walking on thin ice now, pal. You're implying that all skills in Wasteland 2 should be scholarly. In that case we need to get rid of Brawling, all shooting skills, Perception, Swim, Climb, etc. as skills, because there's no way anyone can justify learning those from books. My original suggestion is perfectly compatible with libraries, and in fact isn't really all that related to the concept in the first place.

[krellen]

Brawling, all shooting skills, Perception, Swim, Climb, [have] no way [to] justify learning those from books.

That's just not true. Given the same experience and basic talent (attributes), someone that has studied methods and theories on any of those subjects will outperform someone that didn't.

The exponential skill point cost put an upper cap on what one could learn "by theory" rather than "by practice" in Wasteland; any skill over 2-3 was generally infeasible without levelling it up by using it, thus limiting you from having "Captain Study" who knew everything just by reading books.

[TiLT]

The exponential skill point cost put an upper cap on what one could learn "by theory" rather than "by practice" in Wasteland; any skill over 2-3 was generally infeasible without levelling it up by using it, thus limiting you from having "Captain Study" who knew everything just by reading books.

With the result that you instead had high-IQ characters who had basic knowledge in almost every skill in the game, most likely including all combat skills. It just doesn't make sense to me. In the real world, the most intelligent people specialize. Jack-of-all-trades are rare. When the basic system in Wasteland encourages the opposite, doesn't that tell us something about the game system?

[krellen]

the most intelligent people specialize

Not in my experience.

[Badunius]

Learning-by-doing works for everyone, but intelligent people can learn by reading as well.

some examples of intelligent peoples who learned martial arts by reading to the level obtainable by years of practice. There is a huge differences from what you read from books and what you learn from practical experience.

If I understand your suggestion correctly, you're saying that a fighter character should focus more on raising stats, while an intellectual character should focus on leveling skills

I'll try to explain using examples =)
2 example skills
- brawling (max = st + dx)
- chemistry (max = iq + pe)
ranger#1 have st: 6 / dx: 8 / iq: 3 / pe: 5
so skill caps for him will be
(max lvl) brawlin: 14
(max lvl) chemistry: 8

ranger#2 st: 4 / dx: 4 / iq: 12 / pe: 3
(max lvl) brawling: 8
(max lvl) cheistry: 15

now both of them promoted to level 3 and getting 1 + 1.5 = 2 (round down) points to improve their skill or stats
(improvement cost is something to think about)

[krellen]

Learning-by-doing works for everyone, but intelligent people can learn by reading as well.

some examples of intelligent peoples who learned martial arts by reading to the level obtainable by years of practice. There is a huge differences from what you read from books and what you learn from practical experience.

No one could get more than 1-2 levels in the complex skills by skill points alone. That's a bare foundational knowledge; make Martial Arts a 4-point base cost skill and no high-IQ rangers are going to have an unreasonable level of it without practical knowledge.

All the smart people I know are dabblers in a large variety of skills - in Wasteland terms they have a lot of 1s and 2s - and highly skilled at those things they focus their time on.

[Badunius]

then we should just throw away XP, level ups and skill points
and make pure "train what you use" system with ability to read books/manuals to get basic knowledge of some skill