For those that dont read the OP or numerous subsequent clarifications:
Brother None wrote:
There is a thread here
to discuss the nature of Wasteland's combat system, which can branch out into a RTwP discussion if you so like. Please keep this thread to discussing turn-based combat systems for WL2.
And although i chose some posts to quote and snip them somewhat to make it all a bit shorter i suggest other members to go through them individually and read them all.
Bryce777 wrote:Jagged Alliance took about 4 years to make and JA 2 was an interative progression over the course of several releases and expansions. Making a bog standard old school RPG in 18 months from nothing seems kind of impossible already. Trying to emulate JA on top of that is not going to happen.
We are hoping for games such as JA to be a good source of inspiration and that some good aspects of them can be integrated into Wasteland2 combat.
The fact that it has been evolving for so long makes it a plus in this sense.
jackthemayor wrote:I can't count the number of times I wished there was some kind of cover or defensive bonus system in the original fallout.
I agree. Not that I whished for a cover system in Fallout, but that if cleverly implemented and supported by other features, it could really benefit the combat.
I surely did. Especially in the tough random encounters when i was just starting. Sometimes there was a tree or a pile of rocks that would save me from reloading a save thats been done hours earlier.
or it would if it was possible to use it for anything else but to completely hide for a turn or two.
In the cities not so much because the of way architecture was designed.
Important thing here is to make sure there are no "cover spots" artificially added to the world. just let me shoot from a house, hide behind the well, or atleast go prone behind a stone or a porch, crouch behind a barrel.
And add mechanic that allows the bullets to pass through the wood
And have enemies use it all too.
--Option to skip turn of a character once or for the rest of the turn.
--Faster enemy A.I turns - The computer will crunch numbers as you make choices in combat. So the A.I will not 'freeze' when it's your turn, but dynamically begin to act on your actions in the background, as you make them in real time. Here's a post where I go into more detail on how enemy A.I can be sped up by npc's having action presets, acton sets and stackable actions too. Essentially npc's will have A.I 'combat behavior' that is more executed rather than calculated on the fly to various variables, which is more cpu intensive. This is more realistic too since behavior to gunshots and getting shot at varies little from person to person. viewtopic.php?f=12&t=216&start=10
These i can definitely support.
The rest of suggestions goes too much into "make it faster" in the ways that dont primarily contribute to making a deeper and more engaging system and i dont think we need to do that.
Having a better flowing animations, making sure neutrals dont bog down the moment with their shuffling (Den and its junkies
... -although they were funny in a sarcastic way) and having auto resolve or original Wasteland system presentation instead of it, with a reasonable animation speed slider will be more than enough.
In that sense.
valcik wrote:First of all, excuse me for any grammar mistakes please, not a native English speaker. I'm popping up just to add my two cents to this topic, it won't take long.
No probs there. Your spelling is good enough and im not native english speaker either.
While playing the original Wasteland, some enhanced defensive possibilities have crossed my mind. You all remember "evade" option, right? For those who don't, there was an option during the combat turn to try to evade an enemy fire. Evading character spent his turn without any other action but with highly increased chance to avoid any kind of harm.
Now, this is my point. Instead of evading only, I'm thinking about two other defensive choices:
1.) Distracting attack
Some brave, healthy, well armoured ranger will decide to obtain precious time for his buddies in the heat of combat. During his turn, he will jump out of cover against the enemy, screaming like a mad man, shooting wildly.
- Sequence (or speed) of this brave soldier should be increased, probably even doubled during his turn, due to the adrenaline rush.
- Confused enemies will focus all their firepower at this uncovered kamikaze during their next turn. Other rangers should safely regroup, reload, provide first aid for those who needs it or even attack an enemy without any fear of being hit during this turn.
- Also all the splash/burst shots will be aimed at the brave kamikaze, so other members of a friendly team doesn't receive any damage from those area-effects in the next turn.
(Eventually, there should be some chance for a battle-hardened enemies to recognize false threat, so they will decide to ignore this crazy attacker completely. Check based on an opponent's weapon skill comes to mind. Some players will be pissed off, I'm sure, but what's better than defeating smart or skilled enemy, hehe.)
- Kamikaze will suffer with massive penalty to his attack and defensive rolls during this turn. Eventually, he will be completely inactive during the next turn too.
2.) Covering fire
Almost the same as before. In short: instead of a crazy attack mentioned before, one ranger will pop up out of his cover during his turn just to spray some bullets at enemy group, very carefully. There will be some differences in comparison to the regular attack, though:
- Aiming carefully, he will most likely hit the target. Decent attack roll bonus for this turn.
- Due to this surprising attack, any of enemies who are hit by should suffer with some kind of penalty for next turn. (Small attack roll penalty, for instance.)
- Small defense roll penalty for one turn to the brave ranger.
Both actions should be available only for those who are armed with an automatic weapon or so, add anything else what you want. That's all for now. If it's unreadable or it sounds like a nonsense, feel free to delete my post anytime!
All great suggestions and i hope they will be taken into consideration.
Integrated into diversity of individual rangers and enemies in terms of individual skills and abilities these mechanics would increase the gameplay depth two-three fold at the least.
Cowboy Moment wrote:I have the feeling that a lot of the posters worried about turn-based combat being "too slow" don't have a lot of experience concerning TB games, and are basing their opinion on one or two titles - and I can totally understand that someone who played Fallout 1 and liberated Adytum would have this kind of concern. Others seem to take a game with RT or RTwP combat, like BG2, imagine it with turns, and conclude "man, that would be slow and tedious as all hell". This is also true.
One of the strongest influences of Fallout 1&2 systems had on me is constantly imagining and seeing where they could be improved. As did the whole games in every aspect of them.
To me Fallout games are not something we should just copy, but something that shows the way.
And that includes all the funny bugs and good mechanics they had in every aspect.
Its, similar to original Wasteland from what i learn here - a foundation to be built upon.
Cowboy Moment wrote:Even though this thread is about "mechanics", more often than not what makes combat enjoyable in any given game is encounter design.
The point I'm trying to make, is that different combatmechanics work well with different combat encounters.
Of course. Thats why hand placed and carefully designed encounters with diverse enemies are an essential part.
as well as chalenging difficult areas that you cannot go into anytime you want.
Here we are in luck because last interviews Brian did he agrees with this type of design and it seems inXile will pursue this game logic rather than something all of us passionately hate.