No Quest Compass

[rakenan]

Quest compass should not be particularly necessary for a top-down or isometric game. It only became important with the limited perspective of FPS-ified RPG's. I'd like a decent automap option - no, I require a decent automap option - but the game is unlikely to require an arrow pointing the way.

[Korrvin]

I agree that quest compass should be in for things "if you're told specifically where to go". Additionally, I like idea of "proximity" quest compass of active quest (the rest of quests are unaffected), meaning that pointer appears in (some) proximity of the quest object/NPC. Reason for this is that I waste time on meaningless repeating dialogues if there are more then few NPCs, or I can't see a quest object for some trivial reason (bad monitor settings, ingame not-quest related reason, etc).

Thing that I don't like is hand-holding feeling with these all "new and fancy" idiot-approved compasses in "some" aaa titles.

[sync-oz]

My opinion here is that no quest compass is better, even for quests when you're told where to go. A map marker if you look at the map maybe - but even that's probably not necessary. Quest compasses really simplify the gaming experience and take a lot of the fun and realistic vibe of exploration out of the game. Better to get to know the world yourself so you know where to go from your understanding of the world - and getting lost can be half the fun!

On the journal issue, I like journals. I need an aid to my memory - if I've seen something in an in-game dialog I want to be able to read it again and not penalised because I've forgotten it! I like the idea of being able to annotate the journal in-game, would save taking meta-notes on a game.

[Brayko]

I shall reinforce the point.

NO magical quest compass markers.

At the very least make GPS navigation a skill/item you can purchase/find in game.

When given a quest, make the quest givers give either clear directions or give you enough information to start an investigation using your wits and resources to complete.

Arcanum had quests like that, they weren't that hard to figure out if you have a 100+ IQ and a reasonable attention span.

[cyrilverba]

I don't think quest markers are a sin if you're told specifically where to go, because in that case the character knows, the player knows, it makes sense if it's a marker on the map.

Heretic!

No, seriously - that's exactly what journals are for. If your g/f asks you to buy groceries, a glowing arrow doesn't appear in the sky, even if she told you specifically where to go. You can forget about the damned thing even if you walk right past the store - quest failed!

Yes, that's what happens when people get too many quests in real life - either they tend to forget about half of them or they constantly check their organizer.

[Gizmo]

I don't mind map markers at all (provided their locations are common knowledge or were implicitly told to the PC ~Yes this includes the compass points). As far as I'm concerned, so long as my PC knows North & South the 'floating compass points' points reflect their cognizance of a location.

What I do mind is a dynamic compass point that follows an NPC wherever they go. If my PC is supposed to seek out a person, I'm fine with the compass pointing to the town they live in (or lived in); even pointing to their house (provided the PC knows where they live). But I do not want the compass to point AT them while they walk the street on the other side of a building my PC is passing.

That one does not see floating compass points pointing the way in real life~doesn't mean anything to me. There has to be a way to impart the PC's internal knowledge ~It's no different from a reticule that points to a tossed grenade or a hitpoint gauge that tells how unhealthy the PC is feeling.

** IMO it could be interesting if the PC(s) could lose their sense of direction and actually need an equip-able compass (or landmark) to get their bearings again ~and during such time there were no 'floating compass points.'

[r0man]

When given a quest, make the quest givers give either clear directions or give you enough information to start an investigation using your wits and resources to complete.

I've played plenty of games where directions are too vague to be useful. I don't mind exploration, but I absolutely detest running around in circles trying to find someone who is "over there" or "a little to the east" when they are a few miles away or north of the NPC I'm talking to.

Also, I think it would be great to have both an auto-updating quest journal and the ability to both manually and automatically "remember" what NPCs say. Hell, being able to actually write in my journal would be a welcome change from most games.

[undecaf]

I have to agree with "no questcompass" people. I'd hate for the game to devolve into a "follow the arrow" bore.

Mapmarkers are fine if, as stated by others, they are provided through intel given by the NPC's or what ever ingame source.

[KatorRed]

I have to agree with "no questcompass" people…

But I would make this option turn on/off in game settings menu. Because games must be done for all people, but not only for hardcore players.

[thesisko]

I have to agree with "no questcompass" people…

But I would make this option turn on/off in game settings menu. Because games must be done for all people, but not only for hardcore players.

Eh, no. Games can be made for any type of audience and this one seems to be directed specifically at hardcore players. Do you think a developer like Eagle Dynamics makes games for all people?
If Brian Fargo wanted to make a game for a wide audience he might just as well get funding from a publisher.

That said, I don't mind an optional quest-compass as long as the game is designed to play without it. Let me be clear, it should practically be like using a cheat mode since I expect quest design that relies on the player figuring things out for themselves without a magical marker.

[KatorRed]

2thesisko:
Why do You refuse people in right of choice? Will it bother You when someone is seeing quest compass when You are not?
P.S. You example is not good because Eagle Dynamics makes games you can't play without hardware equipment (joystick, HOTAS etc.). What your give it for?

[thesisko]

2thesisko:
Why do You refuse people in right of choice? Will it bother You when someone is seeing quest compass when You are not?
P.S. You example is not good because Eagle Dynamics makes games you can't play without hardware equipment (joystick, HOTAS etc.). What your give it for?

Did you read my post? I didn't refuse anything, I said that designing a game around it would probably degrade the experience for the segment of players that this project should be targeting, namely hardcore RPG gamers.

Eagle Dynamics makes games for hardcore flight simulator fans and they could care less if their games aren't appealing to other gamers. Want more examples of games not designed to appeal to everyone? ARMA, Paradox's grand strategy games, Dwarf Fortress. Hell, even relatively mainstream developers like Piranha Bytes makes a point of appealing to hardcore gamers by not designing their games around "accessibility" features such as a quest compass.

[KatorRed]

2thesisko:
Ok. Let's consider I understood Your point of view, can't say I'm agree with it.

[Brother None]

No, seriously - that's exactly what journals are for. If your g/f asks you to buy groceries, a glowing arrow doesn't appear in the sky, even if she told you specifically where to go. You can forget about the damned thing even if you walk right past the store - quest failed!

I said quest marker, not quest compass. The marker would just be on your map. If you check your map, you'll see it. If you walk by it without checking your map, you'll walk by it. It's just another form of quest notes, but not offering any intrusive in-your-face floating exclamation mark help.

[Crooked Bee]

No, seriously - that's exactly what journals are for. If your g/f asks you to buy groceries, a glowing arrow doesn't appear in the sky, even if she told you specifically where to go. You can forget about the damned thing even if you walk right past the store - quest failed!

I said quest marker, not quest compass. The marker would just be on your map. If you check your map, you'll see it. If you walk by it without checking your map, you'll walk by it. It's just another form of quest notes, but not offering any intrusive in-your-face floating exclamation mark help.

I hope you aren't suggesting introducing quest markers for ALL quest objectives. It'd be okay for well-known locations, I guess (like a well-known inn or casino or whatever), but it wouldn't make much sense for finding NPCs that you aren't supposed to know the location of (e.g., "my husband Bill left me 5 yrs ago, he must be in Vegas now, if you meet him tell him x" shouldn't make Bill's exact or even approximate location magically appear on your map), locating wandering NPCs or, e.g, locating a secret bandit hideout or a hidden weapon stash, etc. Otherwise, it'd be hand-holding of the worst kind.

I also hope that, at least for some of the quest, there'd only be vague hints for you to pursue and figure out by yourself. Which again would be rendered meaningless by quest markers.

[Quarex]

Can we assume that your characters are smart enough to take the map (which they presumably have, if we as players are going to have one) and mark on it where they need to go? Is it really offensive to suggest that the game provides any service in keeping track of the things it expects us to do?

I understand the inherent reaction of offense to the "glowing arrows pointing to NPC" (sometimes hyperbole, sometimes not) trend in games, as it does not exactly add to the feeling that "you are really there!" which most of we oldschool people obsess over in our games. But I also think anything that our characters could easily be doing themselves is a pretty legitimate thing to include. How about this--you can turn off the quest log if you take the special flaw that makes all of your characters illiterate and also blurs all the signage in the game!

[undecaf]

I have to agree with "no questcompass" people…

But I would make this option turn on/off in game settings menu. Because games must be done for all people, but not only for hardcore players.

I wouldn't really mind it since I wouldn't be using it (should it be optional), but I do find the general concept of a questcompass cheap and, in a way, harming how the game intends to be recieved. I don't really even know why anyone would want such a thing anywhere but in games that do not encourage any kind of creative thinking or intuitive exploration. But, as said, I wouldn't mind it should it be completely optional (and not made as something the game relies to).

[Brother None]

I hope you aren't suggesting introducing quest markers for ALL quest objectives.

Man, read the thread before replying. Here:

I don't think quest markers are a sin if you're told specifically where to go, because in that case the character knows, the player knows, it makes sense if it's a marker on the map.

The problem quest compasses created was not that, it was that you could click through dialog, follow the quest compass, kill whatever is at the end of it, and quest over. 90% of Skyrim is exactly that, and it's both stupid and fucking boring.

We've come a long way in how we log and keep track of quests tho, and there's no reason not to make full use of it. Be selective in quest markers, log related dialog with the quests in your questlog. Never ever help the player, but don't put up artificial blockades either.

[Crooked Bee]

I hope you aren't suggesting introducing quest markers for ALL quest objectives.

Man, read the thread before replying. Here:

I don't think quest markers are a sin if you're told specifically where to go, because in that case the character knows, the player knows, it makes sense if it's a marker on the map.

The problem quest compasses created was not that, it was that you could click through dialog, follow the quest compass, kill whatever is at the end of it, and quest over. 90% of Skyrim is exactly that, and it's both stupid and fucking boring.

We've come a long way in how we log and keep track of quests tho, and there's no reason not to make full use of it. Be selective in quest markers, log related dialog with the quests in your questlog. Never ever help the player, but don't put up artificial blockades either.

Sorry, BN. I should've known you had thought it through already. I always tend to overreact when it comes to stuff like quest markers/compass. Those things just drive me nuts, grr.

[Crooked Bee]

How about this--you can turn off the quest log if you take the special flaw that makes all of your characters illiterate and also blurs all the signage in the game!

Sure, why not.

The important thing is, the game should be designed in such a way as to make that kind of play style feasible. The problem with games like Skyrim or Oblivion is that even if you forcefully disable quest compass/markers/etc., the game doesn't give you sufficient information for you to do without those, doesn't give you meaningful location hints, clues, etc. -- simply because it was designed around a quest compass in the first place. I hope the devs keep that in mind no matter what they decide to do. If they plan on including several optional modes, they should design the game so as to make them all feasible, not add them as an afterthought.