Mood: Fallout vs Wasteland

[anubite]

Most actual "retro" games (Atari, NES, Genesis) were technologically advanced for their time. They did not try to create a shoddy graphical experience. Games like VVVVVVVV don't even make any sense - gameplay-wise they're far more advanced than a atari game, but are graphically less advanced that the NES. Most "retro" games (like Minecraft or something) are psuedo-retro aka a codeword for lazy/cheap. Wasteland should try to create its own graphical style pushing the limits with 2-d isometric or topdown format. Wasteland has a good enough budget to try to be pretty.

[CanadianWolvie]

I would disagree strongly with the notion that "retro" is lazy and/or cheap (or ugly). Indie Devs (and more specifically the artists on their team) work hard for their money and pixel art can be every bit a labour of love that conveys messages both abstractly, symbolically, and succinctly. Often times, the art assets of games that do not attempt to convey "realism" age far better in the intervening years from when we last played them. While there is room for improvement as our tools and techniques improve, Wasteland still had a style that was all its own that could be carried forward to the present so it is not as dull and pastel and flared up as other games presently on the market. I rather like it when games are stylized and often the gameplay of a "retro" garners me far more enjoyment so I feel no loss when the art assets are of a particular stylization that conveys the notion of "retro". Calling it lazy and cheap is just the by-product of the lack of understanding of what is going on behind the scenes on these titles and in the context of your post a dig at Minecraft, a quality Indie Dev game IMHO for all the dedication and hard work that has gone into it - hopefully getting to see the process of Double Fine and inXile will give you some insight into the game development process, I know I hope it does for me.

[ButchinMelancholy]

I really don't understand the "retro for retro's sake" argument. This isn't a small indie retro project, it's a full-fledged RPG. There's no real reason for it to ignore all the progress made in the 25 years between, it just has to remember its core identity as a hardcore, pen-and-paper-inspired RPG and work from there.

Agreed.
I just find any fashion mediocre. When you're focusing on making an impression on someone rather than expressing something, it's just sterile, superficial.

Most actual "retro" games (Atari, NES, Genesis) were technologically advanced for their time. They did not try to create a shoddy graphical experience.

It makes me think about what we can find in music. Sometimes you can see some "revival" kind of fashion that just try to mimic what was done there was a time, because they think it was better than now and wants to take it back, but actually they are completely missing the point, and instead of recovering that feeling they are just acting like reactionaries. Because those artists and works that inspires them were actually leading the wave at the time, they were making something fresh and were going forward. So this is, again, completely superficial to just pick out the shape and ignore what was actually behind...

Most "retro" games (like Minecraft or something)

I think Minecraft is not of a "retro-kind-of-game" actually. It's just a design choice that fits the concept, and gives a certain personality to the game. He's not copying some older game that way.

[Ausir]

I think people who expect it to look and play exactly like the original Wasteland are going to be just as disappointed as people who want it to be another Fallout.

[Signal]

I think people who expect it to look and play exactly like the original Wasteland are going to be just as disappointed as people who want it to be another Fallout.

Frankly, I hope this is exactly the case.

[anubite]

I don't want to start a war here, but...

Minecraft, a quality Indie Dev game IMHO for all the dedication and hard work that has gone into it

This statement is absolutely not true. Notch was lazy. He was lucky to attain a zealous and hardworking community, but he himself is not that. Don't give him that kind of credit, especially when Minecraft is basically just a "streamlined" dwarf fortress.

Notch could have pushed the envelope with his graphics after he got tons of unjust money selling an alpha version of a game. But he didn't. That was my point. We don't need to be lazy here and pick a lazy art style and try to appeal to the "retro" ideal - we can pick our own style here and make a beautiful game with a small budget. What Notch did is what other indie studios are doing and it's not a healthy practice. Retro != good.

If you really doubt me, this group (who are usually trolls) did a fairly honest review about minecraft and put everything into perspective fairly well: http://thebestgamers.net/watchvideo.php ... craftagain Minecraft was pretty much a debacle in many respects, with trust misplaced in Notch - who promised much and delivered very little. I don't really want to steer this topic off course, but since we're talking about indie games - this is the kind of example you want to avoid Wasteland becoming, especially when actually good indie devs (like the two men behind Dwarf Fortress) release their games for free with ten times more features.

[homeslice82]

You seem bitter, anubite.

[NoMouseville]

I think people who expect it to look and play exactly like the original Wasteland are going to be just as disappointed as people who want it to be another Fallout.

I truly hope this is the case.

[ravenshrike]

This is a difficult road to hoe. In terms of colors, Fallout as least accurately represents the greys and browns of what a post-bomb world would look at. Green is rare and precious. To my mind, that's why places like the Ag Station and Highpool are so different from the rest of the places in the game, and why they are important. They are valuable, with the resources for life. The combination of the area of Wasteland that's desert with the post-bomb lack of resources means those that are three are more even more important than they might be in other places.

This is in fact completely false. The less complex wildlife, especially plants, have relatively little trouble with alpha and beta sources of radiation. While you might argue that the climate change initiated by a full scale nuclear war(which nobody is really agreed upon what the effects would be, just that there would be some effect) would change whether certain areas had certain kinds of plant life, the plant life would be alive and well.


As for the exact tone of the game, it's obvious that the retro-50's bullshit won't fly. That being said, a lot of the tone of the game should depend on how long after the bombs dropped it takes place. Any truly appreciable amount of time and you will see people start to rebuild a la FO2, 3, and NV. That's how humans ACT. Seeing as there would be plenty of books and other things still lying around.


Moreover, have they made an announcement whether they will merely expand upon the original written scenario or if they will update it to the nuclear war starting sometime after the present?

[krellen]

start to rebuild a la FO [..] 3

My biggest problem with Fallout 3 was how little rebuilding there had been, actually.

[doady]

Games in the 80s already paid attention to the graphical art style, in some cases A LOT of attention. From the looks of it, Wasteland was probably no different. In terms of technical quality, yes, graphics have improved a lot. But in terms of artistic quality? Artistic direction? I don't think things have changed/improved much in the past 25 or so years. So I don't agree Wasteland 2 needs to adopt a different visual style/tone than the original just because of new technology. Maybe the style/tone should be different, but for reasons other than in the name of "progress."

[homeslice82]

start to rebuild a la FO [..] 3

My biggest problem with Fallout 3 was how little rebuilding there had been, actually.

Indeed. It's absurd to think that humanity would be living in dust, sand and bombed-out rubble 200 years after the fact. It was just laziness/ineptitude on Bethesda's part.

[krellen]

start to rebuild a la FO [..] 3

My biggest problem with Fallout 3 was how little rebuilding there had been, actually.

Indeed. It's absurd to think that humanity would be living in dust, sand and bombed-out rubble 200 years after the fact. It was just laziness/ineptitude on Bethesda's part.

The thing that drives me crazy is all the fans that were introduced to the series by Fallout 3 that complain about New Vegas not being "Post-Apocalyptic"y enough. Like somehow being a giant wasteland devoid of life 200 years after a disaster was a good thing.

[doady]

Well, the Las Vegas area is already sort of a wasteland even now, so nuclear fallout wouldn't change much, whether 1 year or 200 years after the fact. Washington, DC is a different though.

[ravenshrike]

Well, the Las Vegas area is already sort of a wasteland even now, so nuclear fallout wouldn't change much, whether 1 year or 200 years after the fact. Washington, DC is a different though.

OTOH the DC area would have been hit with enough nukes that any human presence outside of the Vaults had to come from people moving into the area.

[homeslice82]

Well, the Las Vegas area is already sort of a wasteland even now, so nuclear fallout wouldn't change much, whether 1 year or 200 years after the fact. Washington, DC is a different though.

OTOH the DC area would have been hit with enough nukes that any human presence outside of the Vaults had to come from people moving into the area.

And yet, somehow, there are still ruined buildings from before standing there.

Bethesda.

[Drool]

Well, the Las Vegas area is already sort of a wasteland even now, so nuclear fallout wouldn't change much

It's more because the house bet against any bombs falling on Vegas, and nobody beats the house.

[anubite]

You seem bitter, anubite.

I never trusted Notch, but I feel for those who did. It's frustrating that someone can not care about people who support your product and passion.

[doady]

It's kind of interesting though to think how fast civilization would recover from such an event. Would it even recover at all?

I am reminded of the Mad Max movies, where civilization actually declines gradually over time, juxtaposed with Max's rediscovery of his humanity and becoming a true hero.

Maybe after 200 years nature can recover from a nuclear apocalypse and the physical environment becomes colorful anf full of natural life. But the social environment? Who knows... maybe modern civilization crumbles even more.

[ButchinMelancholy]

That's the way we go, already...
And precisely I would think that people would find back some essential things that would get them out from our current madness in that context, even if a devasted world could have a morbid influence on people in parallel...