Females as Characters

[homeslice82]

Is it realistic? Nope, but it does fit with the image that was common on 70's/80's post apok future vision. Along with mohoks and gangs.

Wasteland contained its share of normal-looking women, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Is it juvenile? Probably, but hell that was the age group that played the game at the time and the past things that needs to come back in this dystopia politically correct world.

I'm pretty sure that most of them are adults now.

[anubite]

How about we let the player create their own characters with their own motivations in mind and give them options to explore those characters, as in a role-playing game.

I'm fine with a player creating his PC and an entire party of characters, if that's how you want to design the game, but you cannot expect a player to create 1000 NPCs for his game. If you want to do that, then go back to PnP.

All of the characters I've mentioned in this game with any positive connotation (besides Kreia) are NPCs, not PCs or PC-party members.

I don't appreciate being lectured to about what a roleplaying game is.

[Azriel]

Is it realistic? Nope, but it does fit with the image that was common on 70's/80's post apok future vision. Along with mohoks and gangs.

Wasteland contained its share of normal-looking women, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Is it juvenile? Probably, but hell that was the age group that played the game at the time and the past things that needs to come back in this dystopia politically correct world.

I'm pretty sure that most of them are adults now.

Adult's who want the old school games, that includes catering to their inner 13 year old selves.

[ravenshrike]

I don't know, but either of these characters can be highlighted as having depth and intrigue. A character like Tali'Zorah - who you're welcome to love and adore - is nothing more than a teddy bear and a big piece of fan service. There's barely a shred of depth to her character. She's just a nerdy, shy, bumbling introvert with large breasts and hips.

Really, this is the direction you want to go? Tali is only a one dimensional character if you don't pay attention. Of the LIs in the Mass Effect series she arguably exhibits the greatest growth as a person. The quarians are sent out, probably around 16-20 years of age, on their equivalent of rumspringa. At this point in time she's a shy, snot-nosed kid that stumbles upon really important information and has a bunch of people trying to kill her. She was just recently exposed to large numbers of aliens and so remains very much an introvert throughout the first game, which is entirely in keeping with her origin. However, watching Shepard and surviving the conflicts she did expands her horizons, as well as giving her a severe case of hero worship.

2 years and change later sees her in command of what amounts to a small group of quarian spec ops. She finds out that her hero is back from the dead and working with people who are enemies of the fleet. Assuming you played ME2 with the fuck Cerberus mindset, she sees him saving her people and ignoring the cheerleader's recommendations. He the proceeds to save her ass on Haestrom. Romanced or not, assuming you pick the optimal path he then proceeds to cut through the histrionic bullshit created by the quarian fleet. Assuming you picked up the LotSB dlc, you would know that throughout the events of the game she was installing and uninstalling what amounts to a masturbation program for her suit, and eventually purchases the pro version. That remains unchanged whether you romance her or not or if you're male or female. Throughout ME2 Tali becomes a stronger person and more accepting of who she is. Less dependent on others and more assertive of her own needs.

Come the final installment, and it sees her as an ADMIRAL. The highest position a quarian can aspire to, and she's there at a VERY young age, and realizes she is pretty damned unprepared. By the end of the game, assuming she doesn't die, she has become entirely her own person, no longer the least bit shy or dependent on others. Is she still extremely cute, sure. But then I know actual women who are quite independent who have that same edge of cuteness.

One dimensional character my hairy balls.

[Brother None]

Wow. Even on the Wasteland 2 forums you just can't hide from Talimancers I guess? I really don't want to learn about her masturbation suit, thank you.

Anyway, this isn't a Mass Effect discussion forum. Keep it on the BioWare forums, please.

[ravenshrike]

Yes... Talimancer... even though with 5 Shepards only one romances Tali. And 3 Fallout 1 characters, 7 FO2, 4 BG Tutu chars, 3 NWN, 4 DA:O etc... etc...

But I'm a Talimancer 'cause I really dislike off the cuff dismissive characterization.

[anubite]

I don't know, but either of these characters can be highlighted as having depth and intrigue. A character like Tali'Zorah - who you're welcome to love and adore - is nothing more than a teddy bear and a big piece of fan service. There's barely a shred of depth to her character. She's just a nerdy, shy, bumbling introvert with large breasts and hips.

Really, this is the direction you want to go? Tali is only a one dimensional character if you don't pay attention. Of the LIs in the Mass Effect series she arguably exhibits the greatest growth as a person. The quarians are sent out, probably around 16-20 years of age, on their equivalent of rumspringa. At this point in time she's a shy, snot-nosed kid that stumbles upon really important information and has a bunch of people trying to kill her. She was just recently exposed to large numbers of aliens and so remains very much an introvert throughout the first game, which is entirely in keeping with her origin. However, watching Shepard and surviving the conflicts she did expands her horizons, as well as giving her a severe case of hero worship.

2 years and change later sees her in command of what amounts to a small group of quarian spec ops. She finds out that her hero is back from the dead and working with people who are enemies of the fleet. Assuming you played ME2 with the fuck Cerberus mindset, she sees him saving her people and ignoring the cheerleader's recommendations. He the proceeds to save her ass on Haestrom. Romanced or not, assuming you pick the optimal path he then proceeds to cut through the histrionic bullshit created by the quarian fleet. Assuming you picked up the LotSB dlc, you would know that throughout the events of the game she was installing and uninstalling what amounts to a masturbation program for her suit, and eventually purchases the pro version. That remains unchanged whether you romance her or not or if you're male or female. Throughout ME2 Tali becomes a stronger person and more accepting of who she is. Less dependent on others and more assertive of her own needs.

Come the final installment, and it sees her as an ADMIRAL. The highest position a quarian can aspire to, and she's there at a VERY young age, and realizes she is pretty damned unprepared. By the end of the game, assuming she doesn't die, she has become entirely her own person, no longer the least bit shy or dependent on others. Is she still extremely cute, sure. But then I know actual women who are quite independent who have that same edge of cuteness.

One dimensional character my hairy balls.

She is one dimensional.

Can you describe Tali'Zorah without:

Mentioning her rank and role
Her costume
Her physical appearance

I think you will be hard pressed to say more than "shy/introverted/bumbling". Even if you can say a little more than that, she has nothing else to her. I'm sorry you're so easily charmed by her innocence, you need to wake up. She has a long story to her, but she has a shocking low amount of character. Someone like Kreia, who goes through two costume changes, lies to you, and changes her role and attitude all throughout KOTOR2, has a concrete identifiable character you can spend paragraphs describing. You will be hard pressed to describe Tali in more than two sentences, when you strip the shallow facets that define her.

[homeslice82]

Shrike, nothing you just said about the character made her sound like anything more than a generic, wish-fulfilling cliche of the type usually associated with Japanese dating sims. It was depressing to read.

Regardless, let's get back to talking about Wasteland 2 before None locks the thread.

Back on topic: look at Grace from Gabriel Knight: Sins of the Fathers for a good idea of how to execute a prominent female character without resorting to a romance plotline. Gabriel and Grace banter as friends throughout the game, and they support each other in the serious scenes; but there's no love story between them at all. If there are going to be female companions with dialogue in Wasteland 2, I'd hugely prefer this style over Mass Effect-esque romance novel BS. Romance can be properly executed in RPGs (see Temple of Elemental Evil), but it shouldn't by any means define the player's interactions with every female character. BioWare has been doing that since Baldur's Gate II, and every single one of their games has suffered because of it.

At the very least, if you include romance, write the characters so that they're interesting enough to stand on their own, with or without those plotlines. Making a romance story the central element of a female character is rarely a good idea. Planescape: Torment did a good job of putting great characters first, and then making romance one of the many ways that you might interact with them.

[anubite]

I like the sound of that to be honest. There are so few female "Bro" characters -- companions who "toe the line" and support you. Malik was kind of like that, though perhaps not to the degree I would have liked.

[Arkki-Iljetys]

Now, you CAN have 'fanservice' in a game and it can be handled well. One such example is VV in VTMB. Velvet Velour is a vampire whose past is not well explored, but you're given tantalizing hints as to what kind of human she once was and what kind of role she's trying to play. In VTMB, she can seduce your player and trick him/her into doing all of her dirty work - and you may never realize this. Sometimes your character does realize this and call her out on it, but you can choose to help her.

Or you can choose not to have your experience points which you can't even get by grinding something. That's what that game boils down to, you have to do everything and often in a very specific manner to get all the experience points. The only thing to consider about that Jeanette/Therese business is how to get the ending to the quest that gives the most experience, you can choose not to flirt with her and get less exp. Great design right there. That's beside the point though. Having your elder vampires manipulate you into doing crap is perfectly appropriate in a Vampire game and their personalities work, considering the clans at least.

Just as long as they're interesting characters that bring something to the story, it doesn't matter if they're men or women.

[Mort2]

OP: I would love to have some good and intresting female NPC charactrs, that I could interact with. However, I can not see breaking of gender roles in our setting. On the contrary, when order breakes and oprtunities flees the "traditional" gender ~"roles" enforced not diapear(unlike today). when we go primal we do what we have to survive, the strongest become at the top of the food chain(mostly men or those who armed well) and the rest try to do best to survive, the rest slaving or selling themslef...

I can see Female rangers and in other comunities enjoying normal status but I'd expect that in the majoirty of the waste women be treated far worse than women had to a hundred years ago.

[anubite]

you can choose not to flirt with her and get less exp. Great design right there.

VTMB is not a game about min/maxing so it's fine. And I'm pretty sure you get the most experience for saving the sisters instead of siding/flirting with Jeannette, though I can't recall. If anything, it's a difference of one or two experience points (which means - gasp - you can put one point into research or something you normally couldn't).

I can see Female rangers and in other comunities enjoying normal status but I'd expect that in the majoirty of the waste women be treated far worse than women had to a hundred years ago.

In a wasteland, mass communication is obliterated. Communities faction and splinter. You'll come across a lot of diversity in a relatively small region. Wouldn't be surprised for women to be treated like gods in one area, treated like dirt in the next. And that's what's so appealing about this kind of setting - you can cram a lot of conflicts into one area and have it be believable.

[Azriel]

you can choose not to flirt with her and get less exp. Great design right there.

VTMB is not a game about min/maxing so it's fine. And I'm pretty sure you get the most experience for saving the sisters instead of siding/flirting with Jeannette, though I can't recall. If anything, it's a difference of one or two experience points (which means - gasp - you can put one point into research or something you normally couldn't).

I can see Female rangers and in other comunities enjoying normal status but I'd expect that in the majoirty of the waste women be treated far worse than women had to a hundred years ago.

In a wasteland, mass communication is obliterated. Communities faction and splinter. You'll come across a lot of diversity in a relatively small region. Wouldn't be surprised for women to be treated like gods in one area, treated like dirt in the next. And that's what's so appealing about this kind of setting - you can cram a lot of conflicts into one area and have it be believable.

But the vast majority of human society has shown that women will just about always get the short end of the stick when things go down hill like in war torn areas. There are exceptions but it is rare. I would not mind seeing a society where women ruled, perhaps like that old movie where one society was drugging the men to be slaves. However, the norm would realistic be that woman would most likely be treated as second class citizens. Not all obviously, some would be on top (like the leader of the thunderdome in mad max beyond the thunderdome), but it would be rare and not too common.

[ffordesoon]

I'd like to see some good characters: some male, some female. some young, some old, some straight, some gay, some bi, some trans, some black, some white, some Asian, et cetera. I don't mean that all of those groups must be represented, but rather that as long as the characters are well-written and interesting and presented as themselves first and foremost rather than as a representative of a certain demographic, and as long as not everyone is a straight white dude or a T&A showcase, I kind of don't need the characters to be a certain way. Good characters are good characters are good characters.

Now, look, maybe I'm being a sexist jerk here, as I'm exactly the sort of straight white dude I hate seeing exclusively in a game, but I, too, find that Anubite undercuts him or herself by asking for strong, "human" female characters, then giving as his or her examples a bunch of manipulators, most of whom are also promiscuous in a way that could be considered unhealthy for them as well as the player character. And also Malik, who's an admirable example, but the rest of them give me pause. Not because they're bad characters; I'm certainly not suggesting that those characters are any less valid than any other type of character, and I believe they're all written excellently. Plus, I mean, there aren't a whole lot of characters in Bloodlines that aren't horribly messed up, male or female, so I don't think the writer of that game had some Dastardly Sexist Agenda or anything.

What gives me pause is the equation, perhaps unintentional, of damaged characters with strong and/or deep characters. While it is true that the best characters tend not to be ones who are perfect in all things (though I firmly believe that even a "perfect" character can be made interesting if handled correctly), that doesn't necessarily require them to be some maladjusted wreck. There have been plenty of well-written, well-developed characters, male and female, who don't fall into that category, and I think it's silly at best to act like a happy-go-lucky character can't be just as interesting and deep as a tortured, broody soul. In point of fact (and I stress this is not a critique of Bloodlines, wherein crippling character flaws are as common as parking spaces near an unpopular mall for entirely valid reasons), I think it can feel rather lazy if a game relies too heavily on characters with tragic pasts or humorless brood-bots.

Firefly (to use an example a lot of people on this board seem to enjoy) would be a much duller show without Kaylee, you know? I don't need every NPC I meet in W2 to be a beaten-down husk or a grim warrior with a dark past. That certainly wasn't the case in Wasteland or Fallout.

[Woolfe]

I haven't read most of this. I read a bit. I see what the OP was trying to say.

This is where the character creation element helps a lot.

You essentially design the character as you want. If you want to design a stereotype, then design a stereotype.

If you want to design a radically different non-stereotype, then go ahead.

As to NPC. Create whatever is appropriate. I am sure there will be women and men who are downtrodden and run into the ground. But I am also sure there will be women and men that are not in those situations.

I think the OP just doesn't want to see every female character as a bit of fanservice.

[Azriel]

I haven't read most of this. I read a bit. I see what the OP was trying to say.

This is where the character creation element helps a lot.

You essentially design the character as you want. If you want to design a stereotype, then design a stereotype.

If you want to design a radically different non-stereotype, then go ahead.

As to NPC. Create whatever is appropriate. I am sure there will be women and men who are downtrodden and run into the ground. But I am also sure there will be women and men that are not in those situations.

I think the OP just doesn't want to see every female character as a bit of fanservice.

That's fair, but I don't want the game to have nothing but strong female characters and only "Token" fanservice characters. Strong female characters would be rare for reasons mentioned earlier. However, that should make them stick out even more.

[Elerond]

I haven't read most of this. I read a bit. I see what the OP was trying to say.

This is where the character creation element helps a lot.

You essentially design the character as you want. If you want to design a stereotype, then design a stereotype.

If you want to design a radically different non-stereotype, then go ahead.

As to NPC. Create whatever is appropriate. I am sure there will be women and men who are downtrodden and run into the ground. But I am also sure there will be women and men that are not in those situations.

I think the OP just doesn't want to see every female character as a bit of fanservice.

That's fair, but I don't want the game to have nothing but strong female characters and only "Token" fanservice characters. Strong female characters would be rare for reasons mentioned earlier. However, that should make them stick out even more.

Strong characters are rare among both males and females. Most of humans have cattle like personality, who follow those strong characters. In some cultures woman must be exceptional strong to get men to follow them because in females are seen in those cultures as lower beings. In history most female leaders are better known than most their male counter parts for that reason.

So so strong character should be rare sight despite about their gender.

What I would like see in Wasteland 2 is that writes don't take easy road and use gender roles from our past, but think new and some what suprising (new) roles for both genders and even better if this roles are different in every settlement. Things like females are physicaly weaker so they must be opressed, or females give birth for children so they must be protected or etc. are bit pooring to see. Because in post-apocalyptic scifi world you can write anything what you want, for example cybergenetic implants work some reason better in females which is caused females be physicaly stronger than males. Settlement has artificical birth machine which can make test-tube babies from any X- or Y- chromosomes from two different persons and there is no matter if those chromosomes came from man and female, or female and female or man and man, and that is only way to make babies becuse radiation(or something else) has made every person in settlemet sterile. And because we are post-apocalypse world there isn't only one solution, but every settlement has their own problems and own solutions.

[Thrin]

I registered to respond to this thread.

I think this is a great point. Female characters are important in a world.

Please take time to make females real and not just pin-up dolls for boy gamers or weird and "twisted" sexual deviants.

Take the time to map out the breakdown of society and how it would rebuild.

Would females take up the role of leadership in a fragmented society that fights for a precarious existence?

Do the lingering armaments that do not require physical strength alter how society rebuilds? In other words, do females take a greater role in battle and skirmishes? Are they protected as the 'future mothers' and banned from entering into conflict?

I would hope that as a player travels across the land they would encounter unique and different societies trying to figure out how to stay alive in the wastes. Some might venerate women and keep them from combat. In the course of this, females would likely tend to live longer (assuming that some medications or expertise remains from the past to keep women alive through childbirth) and that would, in my mind, lead to greater wisdom based around a group of elderly women. This, in turn, would possibly lead towards a guiding council of women or straight up leadership from women of a society.

In other locations it may be that men have harems. One man for multiple women due to the constant struggle and warfare. Some societies may even reach a point where the women had to become the hunters and protectors of the society due to the extreme loss of men.

Other societies might send elderly men out to die because they could not feed them while keeping the women.

Some societies might even be 'truly' gender equal.

I just hope the world designers take the time to think about how society would evolve and allow for people to be people. Men and women can be dominate. Men and women can be submissive. Both can take on leadership roles and both can be subservient.

I would be extremely disappointed if the game had the typical male dominated societies and parties that treat women as if this is a Western culture with Western cultural views. What appeals the most to me about an environment like this is the opportunity to create new social constructs that are experimental in form.

If a city was destroyed and the remaining population was 90% female how would it evolve?

How about if it was the other way? If 90% of the population was male?

How could the male dominated society compete against the female dominated society over time? How do population imbalances like this break modern social structures? Clearly in either case the partnership of one man and one women would not be best for the society. Does this matter though? How did they struggle with the need for survival versus holding onto an ingrained moral code?

In the end, I just want to see females who are fleshed out and equality as important as males. I want to see strong females, weak females, lazy females, energetic females... in other words, I want to see them as real humans and not "love interests" created by some male-dominated nerdy design team who don't seem to get out much thus having very uncertain beliefs on how females are.

[deus]

OH FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!




HERE! Stop trying to fill the setting with pretentious fluff, and taint it with some shitty overwritten, grim dark social reality.

Keep it Campy, Eccentric and fantastical.

Not saying the that gender should'n matter in a given scenario, but for gods sake NO rpg module or setting was ever WRITTEN to provide serious literature.

[Svetlovska]

As a female backer, (and human being), I'm kind of hoping 'females' will be as varied, venal/brave/tough/abused/abusing as the guys. Why ever would would they not be?