Cheesy or Cartoony Graphics

[geezer]

If that's a list of all the games made in 1988 then that is a sad list indeed. Mostly console stuff.

[madpaddy]

because i still think the reason the graphics had bright colours is because they couldn't make them any other way at the time.

Uh huh. Yeah. Okay go to this wiki

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988_in_video_gaming

and follow some of the links to those games and then get back to us about the colors that were available in computer games.

The design and appearance of Wasteland was an intentional choice.

I think you will find most of those and most of the games from the 80s have lots of Bright green and blue etc,as graphics didnt have the ability to do the stuff they did in the 90s,but we can go around with this for ever so yeh your right and the new wasteland 2 is gonna look just like that,dam shame but you guys know ya stuff yeh.

[Sobboth]

Wasteland 2 should have his own style, different from fallout.
Not photorealistic though, a bit cartoony like in most of cyberpunk Pen and paper RPG would be nice.
Or a bit like in viewtopic.php?f=18&t=314
There are something i don't like in Borderland graphic, but a bit in this style.

[krellen]

I think you will find most of those and most of the games from the 80s have lots of Bright green and blue etc,as graphics didnt have the ability to do the stuff they did in the 90s

Common things in these images:
Brown (transition from grass to desert, wooden floors)
Grey (Interface borders, lettering)
A clear ascetic choice (red brick buildings, grassy surrounding, yellow desert)
Objective evidence that the colour scheme was not due to technical limitations.

Things that were the result of technical limitations:
reused portraits (like my avatar)
reused sprites (the same green dude in the second shot, the same turquoise dude in the last shot)
low resolution (and thus limited text space/limited graphics space)

[MDF_MadDogFargo]

If that's a list of all the games made in 1988 then that is a sad list indeed. Mostly console stuff.

Sorry, you're right, that's pretty pathetic. Wasteland isn't even of this list.

Damn I am having a hard time finding a simple list of 1988 computer games. Anyone?

[krellen]

Anyone?

Wikipedia's list by category is far more comprehensive.

[dnr]

Common things in these images:
Brown (transition from grass to desert, wooden floors)
Grey (Interface borders, lettering)
A clear ascetic choice (red brick buildings, grassy surrounding, yellow desert)
Objective evidence that the colour scheme was not due to technical limitations.

Things that were the result of technical limitations:
reused portraits (like my avatar)
reused sprites (the same green dude in the second shot, the same turquoise dude in the last shot)
low resolution (and thus limited text space/limited graphics space)

it's hilarious that you point out the awful graphics instead of just reading the description text at the bottom of the screen.

I think that says a lot more about what the room is supposed to look like than the rudimentary graphics.

not that I'm agreeing that wl2 should be fallout:80's

[MaxPower]

I played Wasteland back in the day when I was probably around 10 years old. The highest graphics it supported were EGA 16 color. They had brown but only one or two shades. Cartoon was the best you could do. To me in these early games graphics were always more icons rather than art.

Wasteland conveyed it's realism with mature themes, and moral choices. It feels to me like no aspect of the game should be cartoony. Fallout 1+2 embraced some 1950s cold war era styling and so added the cartoony PIP boy.

[krellen]

it's hilarious that you point out the awful graphics instead of just reading the description text at the bottom of the screen.

I think that says a lot more about what the room is supposed to look like than the rudimentary graphics.

We are not told what colour of paint it needs a new coat of, nor the make and fabric of the worn rugs. For all we know, it's neon green paint and orange shag rugs.

[homeslice82]

Guys, let me settle this. It was completely possible for games to have a gritty color palette back in the day. Metal Gear 1 (1987) is a perfect example.



Compare those colors to the ones in Wasteland above.

Here's Artura (1988) for the C64:



Here's another C64 game from that year called Feud:



Wasteland's colors were obviously intentional. Case closed.

[dnr]

it's hilarious that you point out the awful graphics instead of just reading the description text at the bottom of the screen.

I think that says a lot more about what the room is supposed to look like than the rudimentary graphics.

We are not told what colour of paint it needs a new coat of, nor the make and fabric of the worn rugs. For all we know, it's neon green paint and orange shag rugs.

yep. not arguing that.

also, to those arguing about grimndark colours in other games, please note the system and associated palette used. also wasteland was originally developed for the apple II right?

and this is the palette that the pc version used- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Screen_color_test_EGA_16colors_CGA.png

for comparison

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_8-bit_computer_hardware_palettes

[MDF_MadDogFargo]

it's hilarious that you point out the awful graphics instead of just reading the description text at the bottom of the screen.

I think that says a lot more about what the room is supposed to look like than the rudimentary graphics.

We are not told what colour of paint it needs a new coat of, nor the make and fabric of the worn rugs. For all we know, it's neon green paint and orange shag rugs.

yep. not arguing that.

The graphics in the PC version aren't that hot, really. The Apple ][ gs graphics were better, but I played a lot of the game on a monochrome Apple ][ e. I don't know about the C64 graphics. It didn't matter. Monochrome or color, the game was the same. The text descriptions give the game its atmosphere. You are free to imagine any colors you want. The colors don't tell you if it looks like a cartoon or not, your imagination does. Fallout looks like a cartoon too, albeit a more drab one. No computer games look real, they all have some kind of style. IMO too often that style is trying-to-look-real. Wasteland 2 doesn't need to try to look real, it can be more creative.

[krellen]

Wasteland 2 doesn't need to try to look real, it can be more creative.

My comment was flippant, but I kind of really really want a bar with neon-green fading paint and worn orange shag rugs now.

If only I had five or ten thousand dollars to spare.

[geezer]

Wasteland 2 doesn't need to try to look real, it can be more creative.

So Chris Avellone stick figures then? I used to play a Star Trek game where "*" and "+" represented different game entities. The entire history of computer games has been a gradual move toward realism. Well until consoles started utterly dominating the market and no one bothered furthering the graphics after Crysis because why bother making the graphics better than the consoles can handle? When the new consoles finally come out in a year or two graphics may lurch forward again for a while.

To me the ultimate goal is something like a ST:TNG holodeck or that device people put on their heads in Strange Days or the direct brainstem connection in eXistenZ. Ultimately I'd like to see games have the power and reality of dreams or hallucinations. I guess some people prefer comic books and cartoons. There's a big difference between Crysis and cartoon drawings. Obviously there are always going to be people who don't want an experience to be too real or too intense. Oh, and the opposite of realism is not creativity. An artist can portray something realistic while still being creative. Abstract paintings for instance are not any more creative than realistic ones. Even photographs can be creative.

[homeslice82]

yep. not arguing that.

also, to those arguing about grimndark colours in other games, please note the system and associated palette used. also wasteland was originally developed for the apple II right?

and this is the palette that the pc version used- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Screen_color_test_EGA_16colors_CGA.png

for comparison

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_8-bit_computer_hardware_palettes

Good point. However, the game's Apple II release is still more garish and comic-booky than Bard's Tale III's or Ultima V's, particularly in the detail shots. It's clear that they were going for a stylized look, rather than just being limited by tech.

[MDF_MadDogFargo]

Wasteland 2 doesn't need to try to look real, it can be more creative.

So Chris Avellone stick figures then? I used to play a Star Trek game where "*" and "+" represented different game entities. The entire history of computer games has been a gradual move toward realism.

No it hasn't. The interface has improved but the realism of the characters has considerably declined. A more detailed interface doesn't make the game more realistic if the characters are unbelievable. Fallout 3 and Skyrim have very detailed interfaces but very generic, linear stories.

To me the ultimate goal is something like a ST:TNG holodeck or that device people put on their heads in Strange Days or the direct brainstem connection in eXistenZ. Ultimately I'd like to see games have the power and reality of dreams or hallucinations. I guess some people prefer comic books and cartoons. There's a big difference between Crysis and cartoon drawings. Obviously there are always going to be people who don't want an experience to be too real or too intense. Oh, and the opposite of realism is not creativity. An artist can portray something realistic while still being creative. Abstract paintings for instance are not any more creative than realistic ones. Even photographs can be creative.

I understand what you're getting at here, but making your RPG into a holodeck doesn't improve the story either. We've seen which direction this line of thinking goes and it produces very pretty games with virtually no substance. That's not 'realistic.' That's what's wrong with current games. That's why we want a throwback game that gives us substance of story and it can skimp on the pretty graphics.

Graphics should always be creative and that's just a general comment, it doesn't mean the graphics are "realistic" or deliberately cartoony. What's creative about not trying to make the game look photo-real is that the push to make games look photo-real is a long tendency in computer games that has become the status quo, and given us the dumb, pretty eye-candy RPG games we have today.

[shrubber]

It's obvious that the stylized, bright and cartoony graphics of the original Wasteland were a conscious design choice, but it's also quite obvious that you can't separate the reasons for that choice from what was possible at that time.

If inXile wants our input on the graphic style of Wasteland 2, they could do some mock ups and let us vote on them.

[udm]

waistland 1 looked colourfull because it couldnt look ANY other way at the time

I know it was a while ago, but I haven't lost that much of my memory; I'm pretty sure we still had brown and grey in the 80s. I think I stand on pretty solid footing when I say these colours were not inventions of the 90s.

True. IMO Wasteland seemed to emulate Mad Max more, while Fallout can be better said to take after The Road Warrior. I don't care either way which direction Wasteland 2 goes though, so long as it leans closer to this, and stays away from comic-like, cartoon or cel-shaded graphics:



I like Andree's portfolio btw, and I trust he can do the right thing that will make WL fans happy.

[Arkki-Iljetys]

I thought Borderlands looks fine, unlike Fallout 3 for example.

I don't mind that much just as long as the graphics work and help the atmosphere.

[Badunius]

as far as i remember from my VGA coding experience,
there was an ability to customize all the 16 colors of palette,
and there also was a trick called palette animation,
when you do not change the palette index for every pixel,
but change the color representation for this index.