Engine

[dmazz]

Crytek has attractive options for smaller games built with CryENGINE 3, with shorter development timescales.

That comment makes me think Wasteland 2 will use a commercial engine, why else limit your development time to 12 months as Fargo has done? Maybe they are trying to score some sweet engine deal. Unreal 3 licensing I would wager is equally flexible, a 12 month development cycle indie game would be less expensive than games with more than 12 months development cycle.

Now that Choplifter HD has been mentioned as the previous InXile game. The Unreal 3 engine looks likely if very very expensive. That engine is arguably the most well documented and popular engine in it's class. With Fargo's previous experience with it, very fast development is possible.

Also some cool features added in 2009 were the ability to add fracture effects to static meshes to simulate destructible environments,
Soft body dynamics (physics) =ragdoll physics and large crowd simulation. The latter would be useful for non hostile npc behavior to gunshots for example. Linux and Macosx porting isn't a problem, even porting to 3rd generation Ipod is possible. Also fully integrated with steam (Steamworks).

If we check out the games developed for it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Un ... l_Engine_3
Alot of action rpg's which are basically rpg's with 'real time' combat akin to Baldur's Gate and not traditional turn based combat, feature.
Apoclyofable rpg
Blade & Soul mmrpg
Borderlands a first-person shooter with role-playing elements
Dungeons & Dragons: Daggerdale Action role-playing game
Dungeon Defenders - action RPG
Fury competitive online role-playing game
Infinity Blade action rpg
Mass effect action rpg.
Lost Odyssey RPG with turn based combat. (Final fantasy style)
MagnaCarta II rpg
MU2 MMORPG
Rise of the Argonauts action roleplaying
The Last Remnant RPG
TS Online 3 MMORPG

So already a long history of RPG's developed with it, which means doing so is well documented.
Fargo talks about using the unreal 3 engine here. http://www.unrealengine.com/showcase/choplifter_hd/
Interestingly Choplifter HD was also a 'labor of love' (being based on a very old game)

Fargo says “We’ve been using the Unreal Engine for just about as long as anybody, and my guys have done a wonderful job,” said Fargo. “They really know how to get every ounce out of it and make it do some really cool stuff. For us, we could start making the game day one. All we’ve been doing is focusing on the visuals and the feel of the gameplay without having to create an engine. It’s been great for this project.”

Also Choplifter HD is a downloadable xbox game. So it's a smaller project not dissimilar to Wasteland 2.

“We’re pretty self-sufficient, but one of the great things about using the Unreal Engine is the tools and the support; for that, they get high marks,” said Fargo. “We tap into Epic’s tools every day. And whenever we have issues, they’ve always been very helpful.”

If not the unreal engine which is very expensive. What other very popular, very well documented engines are there that would be cheaper? I think the portability in the future to the xbox and iphone for example, would make up for the money invested in the unreal 3 engine. How much profit InXile makes is the bottom line and using a superior engine like unreal 3, with superior tools and support, will enable them to make the best game possible in their time limit and distribute it to as many people as possible. Money in the bank is money in the bank.

Brian Fargo is also on a crusade of sorts. His aim has not only to make a Wasteland game, but create a game movement. A movement to bring back rich deep text RPGs in the line Baldur's Gate and Fallout 1-2 fashion but with a deep turn based combat system to the masses. That means he needs to deliver the best possible game he can with the resources he has available, that requires polish. Time is limited since he's set himself a 12 month development cycle, but he won't release a subpar game. For the game he wants to release which he has been planning for years, 12 months is all he needs. So with a goal like this, it's not time for cost cutting in regards to an engine. Unreal 3 has very low entry costs and is currently the most functional choice for them, (experience with, tools and support available) so I think that will make it very attractive. If Wastelands is a financial failure and doesn't breakout from a niche fanbase, nothing is lost since it was never about the sequels or the money.

[Aiydee]

Dunno about engine development time. It can be very hit and miss in the times of development.

The big thing is how reusable you want it to be. If you write a one-off, it can be reasonably quick. But good luck trying to plug it into anything else.

If you write an engine that someone else could use? THAT can be difficult and time consuming.

Mind you, this is based off my observation of a mate that teaches game design and development (And does some actual game development too. But primary role = teacher).

I'm thinking that at the end of the day the team will either:
a) Find the engine that best suits; or
b) Develop an engine that fits their situation, even if they don't release the engine.

AD

[Ech]

If by some miracle, inXile manages to convince Epic to officially support Linux under the Unreal engine, I would switch my vote in a heartbeat. With the sheer volume of other games that could possibly be enabled under Linux, that, in itself, would be a second revolution (in addition to crowd funding games of this magnitude).

</dream>

This is a big thing for me personally as the _only_ reason I even have a Windows install is for gaming. I'd rather get that 16GB++ of otherwise dead weight off my drive. I eventually craved for something more than the UT2k4, NWN1 and Q3 I was playing and begrudgingly ponied up $100++ for Win7. =/

[Bryce777]

If we check out the games developed for it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Un ... l_Engine_3
Alot of action rpg's which are basically rpg's with 'real time' combat akin to Baldur's Gate and not traditional turn based combat, feature.
Apoclyofable rpg
Blade & Soul mmrpg
Borderlands a first-person shooter with role-playing elements
Dungeons & Dragons: Daggerdale Action role-playing game
Dungeon Defenders - action RPG
Fury competitive online role-playing game
Infinity Blade action rpg
Mass effect action rpg.
Lost Odyssey RPG with turn based combat. (Final fantasy style)
MagnaCarta II rpg
MU2 MMORPG
Rise of the Argonauts action roleplaying
The Last Remnant RPG
TS Online 3 MMORPG

Yeah but these are all slightly modified FPS games. The engine comes with the functionality to make a first person action RPG by default. You really need to make a lot of GUI and change the camera controls completely. Unreal is not too suitable for the GUI part, which is a lot of the reason so many HUDs become smaller and smaller. Even less development time.

Of course maybe this is done already and they just can't post about it yet for legal reasons. The money requested is very similar to the cost of unreal 3.

If not the unreal engine which is very expensive. What other very popular, very well documented engines are there that would be cheaper?

Anything that has so many customers will have a big price tag, but like I said C4 is a complete package, well documented, and easy to work with and modify and relatively cheap (the 350 standard edition price tag won't apply for such a project). Its few shortcomings are easy to remedy.

I think the portability in the future to the xbox and iphone for example, would make up for the money invested in the unreal 3 engine.

That's exactly why games suck, and exactly why engines suck. They only optimize or care about these other platforms since PC is "dead". So we get hundreds of games that look no better than a good PC only game of 10 years ago yet are called next-gen. When you buy unreal or Unity that's all you get really, lots of platforms. It does take big money to support software on so many platforms, but worse it comes at a big price in quality and stability.

How much profit InXile makes is the bottom line and using a superior engine like unreal 3, with superior tools and support, will enable them to make the best game possible in their time limit and distribute it to as many people as possible. Money in the bank is money in the bank.

Brian Fargo is also on a crusade of sorts. His aim has not only to make a Wasteland game, but create a game movement. A movement to bring back rich deep text RPGs in the line Baldur's Gate and Fallout 1-2 fashion but with a deep turn based combat system to the masses. That means he needs to deliver the best possible game he can with the resources he has available, that requires polish. Time is limited since he's set himself a 12 month development cycle, but he won't release a subpar game. For the game he wants to release which he has been planning for years, 12 months is all he needs. So with a goal like this, it's not time for cost cutting in regards to an engine. Unreal 3 has very low entry costs and is currently the most functional choice for them, (experience with, tools and support available) so I think that will make it very attractive. If Wastelands is a financial failure and doesn't breakout from a niche fanbase, nothing is lost since it was never about the sequels or the money.

It can't really be a financial failure, it's already funded. That's the whole reason they are doing this. When a publisher funds you they keep the IP and they give you a couple million to pay your employees with, then you get nothing from the sales unless you reach some huge sales goals that never seem to happen due to hollywood accounting. Presumably the kickstarter pays the working expenses for about 18 months they spend on the project so even if they get nothing they are no worse off than if they published the game normally. However they will no doubt get more than a few steam sales and instead of the money going to the publisher it goes to them.

They still need profit for the business to be viable but they can also get a publisher to put the game on shelves as well and still get some money in a (smaller but not inconsiderable) lump sum once the project concludes, but without having to give away the IP. So it's a sweet deal for them as long as they don't release a game that makes their fans unhappy.

[Bryce777]

If by some miracle, inXile manages to convince Epic to officially support Linux under the Unreal engine, I would switch my vote in a heartbeat. With the sheer volume of other games that could possibly be enabled under Linux, that, in itself, would be a second revolution (in addition to crowd funding games of this magnitude).

</dream>

This is a big thing for me personally as the _only_ reason I even have a Windows install is for gaming. I'd rather get that 16GB++ of otherwise dead weight off my drive. I eventually craved for something more than the UT2k4, NWN1 and Q3 I was playing and begrudgingly ponied up $100++ for Win7. =/

Go rage against ATI and nvidia. They are the ones who make it so hard to run things under multiple platforms by writing bad drivers and failing to fix any bugs if it doesn't break a game that's on a list of about 100 top games. ATI just sits on bug reports and totally ignores anyone else, even if the change just requires syncing up to what they have on windoze.

[dmazz]

Dark Alliance game engine also referred to as the Snowblind engine was never designed with rpg features like classes, inventory management or turn based combat. It's combat is real time. So really it's only developmental advantage is it's dialogue system, which will need to be modified anyway. InXile worked with this engine in 'The Bards tale'.

It's graphics seem pretty outdated too. It also doesn't have close to the features unreal 3 has, nor anything close to the tools available for those features. I'm talking about stuff like physics, particle effects, lighting and terrain destruction. I think it's safe to say all it's tools are inferior to the ones available for unreal 3. And that reduces speed in content creation, and the immersive depth and detail of a location, which will not only be dependent on textures, but should also incorporate things like wind, dust and dynamic movement (physics). This is easily seen in even smaller games like choplifter HD.

Fargo has also been planning this game for years, so I wager he has a rough draft of almost everything. The plot, characters, locations, missions, weapons, game mechanics, combat system, dialogue system and inventory system. The real unknown is how enjoyable the gameplay is and bringing the game to life with a game engine. 6 months of pre-production will plan everything out and to do that with such a short developmental cycle they'll need to imagine implementation with a engine they are most familiar with. And that's the unreal 3 engine. So that's the default engine they are working with and planning to use, but they are keeping their eyes out and experimenting with other engines that might offer more.

Engines that might offer more than Unreal 3 would be ones that already provide all the tools they need. A good RPG engine. Only an RPG engine will offer even faster development than the unreal 3 engine, price will be around the same if not higher due to porting it to other platforms and os's being harder if not impossible. The closest candidate here is the silent storm engne. Jagged Alliance 3 will be using the Silent Storm engine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAUWAvqjnYw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEGxb1JY ... re=related

Maybe InXile can call them up and negotiate some type of arrangement where they get access to this upgraded Silent Storm engine from the developers of Jagged Alliance 3. Main problem remains that the engine is in german/russian and that's a problem for hardcoding. A text dialogue system and the combat system modified, more hardcoding. The language barrier may be too hard to cross. When canadian software company bought the rights to jagged alliance 3 and started using the silent storm engine, development got stuck, even after they partnered with Russian Studios Akella and F3games. Bitcomposer is german outfit so they may have more success. But it seems an english developer working with the silent storm engine is a no go.

[Bryce777]

And that's the unreal 3 engine. So that's the default engine they are working with and planning to use, but they are keeping their eyes out and experimenting with other engines that might offer more.

Engines that might offer more than Unreal 3 would be ones that already provide all the tools they need. A good RPG engine.

There's no such thing as an "rpg engine". The code for a game is separate from the 3D engine. Most of the tools unreal has are going to be useless for making an overhead game, definitely not work spending a million bucks.

Only an RPG engine will offer even faster development than the unreal 3 engine, price will be around the same if not higher due to porting it to other platforms and os's being harder if not impossible.

It doesn't really work like that. You are either cross-platform, or not. Adding in new platforms is not that hard, but it can expose driver bugs so you really want to get some support from the engine maker here.

The closest candidate here is the silent storm engne. Jagged Alliance 3 will be using the Silent Storm engine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAUWAvqjnYw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEGxb1JY ... re=related

Maybe InXile can call them up and negotiate some type of arrangement where they get access to this upgraded Silent Storm engine from the developers of Jagged Alliance 3. Main problem remains that the engine is in german/russian and that's a problem for hardcoding. A text dialogue system and the combat system modified, more hardcoding. The language barrier may be too hard to cross. When canadian software company bought the rights to jagged alliance 3 and started using the silent storm engine, development got stuck, even after they partnered with Russian Studios Akella and F3games. Bitcomposer is german outfit so they may have more success. But it an english developer working with the silent storm engine looks like no go.

Silent storm isn't an engine. They use an open source but unsupported engine developed by some german company, I forget the name? Dark Nebula? Something like that.

It could easily take months just to update the SS code to work on a new engine. It's also going to be a lot harder to get license to use the code (and who knows if it even exists any more). It would be more expensive than just getting unreal as it would be like making a SS sequel in their eyes. And just because it has many of the features you'd like in WL doesn't mean they wouldn't have to be reworked a lot to make WL. It's also incredibly slow engine, so while I'd love to see more games with similar gameplay it's pretty much useless to inxile all around.

[dmazz]

But don't engines like Infinity, Aurora and so on, come with tools ideal for making an RPG? Or do those tools need to be coded separately for each game project? Is it possible to buy a games source code and use the tools they used to make the game to make your own, but with some modifications? If the latter is possible, it sounds like a good option.

Most of the tools unreal has are going to be useless for making an overhead game, definitely not work spending a million bucks.

So basically no engine offers any useful tools to make an RPG? Or is unreal 3 just too overpriced for the tools it offers? Sorry for so many questions.

[SXX]

But don't engines like Infinity, Aurora and so on, come with tools ideal for making an RPG? Or do those tools need to be coded separately for each game project? Is it possible to buy a games source code and use the tools they used to make the game to make your own, but with some modifications? If the latter is possible, it sounds like a good option.

Using of outdated technologies usually makes more problems than writing of own tools.
E.g engines like Aurora doesn't have integration and import/export for new versions of 3ds max and every other software which are used in game development.
As well its doesn't support some new practice and better algorithms which are available in new technologies.
It not graphics but: AI, Physics, CPU/RAM management, multi-core support, x86_64 support, WYSIWYG editing.
All these features is really outdated in engines like Aurora.

So basically no engine offers any useful tools to make an RPG? Or is unreal 3 just too overpriced for the tools it offers? Sorry for so many questions.

Unreal Engine 3 for this project only possible if Epic give it like with very special conditions, in other way UE is too expensive.

[Bryce777]

So basically no engine offers any useful tools to make an RPG? Or is unreal 3 just too overpriced for the tools it offers? Sorry for so many questions.

Pretty much, yeah.

Even if you try to get something like NWN2 then you'd either have to make a DnD game or else make more tools or else heavily modify their tools. When you do that kind of recoding it often takes about as long as just rewriting.

But they probably have some kind of tools already. Bard's Tale remake is not going to be too similar to Wasteland 2 but they can probably salvage some of it, especially since it's their own code. Tools are a lot easier to move to a new engine than the game logic and GUI which might not even be in the same language.

Anyway, who knows. Like someone pointed out these guys have made a LOT of games. They probably have a good plan already and even if they don't they are going to work their butts off to make sure everything goes well.

[torque]

Silent storm isn't an engine. They use an open source but unsupported engine developed by some german company, I forget the name? Dark Nebula? Something like that.

It's called The Nebula Device, currently there seem to be two major versions available (2 and 3). It was used for DSA: Drakensang and I think it performed quiet well there (version 2, version 3 was used for the addon, AFAIK). It's MIT-licensed and therefore very liberal (can keep changes closed). Sadly, the company (Radon Labs) is no more (now part of Big Point, doing browser-crap [based on Nebula 3, again AFAIK]).

Good you brought that up, I wanted to take a closer look at it for some time but almost forgot about it. It's also a bit overdosed for my current project. But I'll check it out anyway, as there might be some things to learn from it.

One of the developers blogs is here. All the download links are broken, but there is the Nebula 2 SourceForge Project, the Nebula 3 google code project (very outdated) and some polish guy has mirrored all the important releases, as it seems.

I don't know if this is an option for W2 as I don't even know W2s exact requirements, but nebula seems to support mac and linux ...

[PiPboy]

According to this Silent Storm is an Engine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_Storm_engine

Also mentioned by the developer in a Interview

What engine are you using for this game? If it’s an in-house engine how long has it been in development?

We started on the Silent Storm engine about 3 years ago with the goal of creating the best turn-based engine available. It has a ton of technical features that allow us to do things in the game that either haven’t been done before or are just beginning to be implemented in other PC games – of any genre! The features include a realistic physics system for structures, an advanced damage model and accurate projectile trajectories as well as Real-time destruction of nearly anything in the game. Rag doll animations and inverse kinematics assure lifelike movement and death scenes. Dynamic lighting and shadows add to the realism and create the right atmosphere as well as Dolby 5.1 surround sound that will give you audio cues as to where your opposition is hiding. These are just a few of the things that the engine is capable of, but I won’t spend too much time talking about it - seeing is believing!

http://www.gamershell.com/articles/688.html

[torque]

According to the wikipedia page, Silent Storm has nothing to do with Nebula. It uses an engine developed specifically for the project (the Silent Storm Engine).

SS = the game, SSE = the engine. Easy.

EDIT: after having read a bit, one should probably stay away from Nebula 2, especially for learning purposes. I don't know at which stage Nebula 3 was in the May 2010 drop, but from what I've read a lot of shortcomings were fixed in V3.

[dmazz]

Here's some more technical info on that drakensong browser run MMO game, powered by Nebula 3.
http://www.drakensang.info/content/view/45/37/
Says it uses Speedtree " apowerful toolkit used to create 3D vegetation for games, films, and animations." Alot of games use it.
http://www.speedtree.com/
And uses Shader Model 3.0 (supported by 256mb video cards, read that on yahooanswers)
And it's a good looking engine, alot of atmosphere.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZB5Y02qHZ1M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyOnthCwvdk

This DrakenSang online guy mentions in his blog http://flohofwoe.blogspot.de/ saying he's added some new features to Nebula 3, his post is dated June 2011, so it appears he seems to be updating Nebula 3 as we speak. He also got it running on iOS. I also find it pretty impressive that he made Drakensong Online in 8 months. And his game was released under Big pointg so it seems the Nebula 3 engine still has support.

The Nebula engine was also used to make the german Drakensang: The Dark Eye RPG it used 'real time with pause' combat and won "Best RPG 2008", "Best Story" and "Best Soundtrack" at the German Developer Awards in Essen, Germany.

Here's a link to what the MIT licence means. http://www.opensource.org/licenses/mit-license.php
And since DrakenSung Online is browser based game developed in 8 months. Drakensang: The River of Time released in 2010 may be a better example of the engines capabilities. Looks pretty good. Also of note is this games combat system is turn based.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1wday5t ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmOEDqLnLeA

[kibertoad]

Since Kickstarter is already approaching 1.5m, I think it's a safe bet to say that Linux support is in. So we need an engine with OpenGL support (and it means that e. g. Unity and Torque are out of the question).

What about Unigine then? (http://unigine.com/)

It's about as cross-platform as it gets (Windows, Linux, Mac, PS3, Android), unexpensive ("an average deal is about 30,000 USD per project") and up-to-date (DirectX 9 through 11 support, Shader Model 5.0), Physics, terrain and scripting suppor out of the box.

What do you guys think?

[geezer]

Since Kickstarter is already approaching 1.5m, I think it's a safe bet to say that Linux support is in. So we need an engine with OpenGL support (and it means that e. g. Unity and Torque are out of the question).

What about Unigine then? (http://unigine.com/)

It's about as cross-platform as it gets (Windows, Linux, Mac, PS3, Android), unexpensive ("an average deal is about 30,000 USD per project") and up-to-date (DirectX 9 through 11 support, Shader Model 5.0), Physics, terrain and scripting suppor out of the box.

What do you guys think?

Have you read this thread at all? Just curious.

@ dmazz: Video RAM has nothing to do with Directx Shader 3.0.

[madpaddy]

Well i dont expect too much but i do expect a 3D engine it doesnt have to be amazing i dont care for DX10/11 but if its a 2d game ill be very disappointed.

[dnr]

this looks okay.

yet I hope they will use a modified version of GemRB

http://sourceforge.net/projects/gemrb/

features not supported:

Hardware acceleration

hmmmm

[MDF_MadDogFargo]

Sigh. I guess I am going to be the idiot who asks the obvious question 'Why not use RPG Maker?' and get flamed for being a troll. Okay, go ahead and laugh. We are making a CRPG not a JRPG, yadda yadda yadda. Come here and join an interesting dissection of the differences and similarites between the western and the Japanese RPG tradition:

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=657

I'll just suck up the inevitable derision of suggesting RPG Maker as an engine and point out that there are many legit independent English-language RPGs being made in this format, Arvale, 3 Stars of Destiny, Aveyond, Millenium, Laxius Force to name a few. If we are looking for cheap game engines so we can focus on characters and story, there's an option.

[Bryce777]

Silent storm isn't an engine. They use an open source but unsupported engine developed by some german company, I forget the name? Dark Nebula? Something like that.

It's called The Nebula Device, currently there seem to be two major versions available (2 and 3). It was used for DSA: Drakensang and I think it performed quiet well there (version 2, version 3 was used for the addon, AFAIK). It's MIT-licensed and therefore very liberal (can keep changes closed). Sadly, the company (Radon Labs) is no more (now part of Big Point, doing browser-crap [based on Nebula 3, again AFAIK]).

Good you brought that up, I wanted to take a closer look at it for some time but almost forgot about it. It's also a bit overdosed for my current project. But I'll check it out anyway, as there might be some things to learn from it.

One of the developers blogs is here. All the download links are broken, but there is the Nebula 2 SourceForge Project, the Nebula 3 google code project (very outdated) and some polish guy has mirrored all the important releases, as it seems.

I don't know if this is an option for W2 as I don't even know W2s exact requirements, but nebula seems to support mac and linux ...

if RPG is all about story then this makes sense. But people like to have a new and interesting game system for a game to take it seriously. It would be hard to make any big changes to RPG maker.

Not to mention wanting custom dialog, inventory and exploration options that you can't really do much to change.

Plus, even for a 2D engine it is pretty limiting.