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Character Creation W/ Humanizing Stories

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Character Creation W/ Humanizing Stories

Postby alexlovesinxile » March 17th, 2012, 11:31 am

:!: GOAL

1. To give every playable character an engrossing history and related quest line.

1. To give the player as much customization as possible in character creation. I.E. to maintain or augment the level of customization in the original Wasteland.

2. To balance customization so that it has relevance to the game world beyond the player's own imagination.

3. To maximize replayability.

:!: DILEMMA

I've seen some express, on this forum, interest in both 1) having backgrounds and stories for every playable character, and 2) being able to write your own background and story for each playable character. I think these are both awesome ideas, but how do you keep the latter from becoming a practice in LARPing? Use archetypes... or presets of a kind... wait...

:!: SOLUTION

SUMMED UP:

You get all the customization of the original Wasteland, but with the added bonus of being able to choose background stories (that influence character relationships and open up a character-centric quest-line) that make sense with the attributes you choose. You have the added option of having the game organically apply a background story while you're creating your character, at no additional sacrifice to customization.

SOMEWHAT MORE SPECIFIC:

InXile would provide an array of archetypal characters who's names and stats could be tweaked - tweaked to the extent that those names and stats remain relevant to the character's "archetypal" background story and related in-game quest-line, also provided by Inxile.

While the background and quest-line for a specific archetype (doctor, thief, etc) would not be editable, the character's name and stats would have more of a flexible symbiotic relationship (the f- am I talking about? I'll deal with this in the implementation section below).

This limitation provides InXile the ability to give all four of your starting characters interesting quest-lines and special inter-character relationships. If you're a doctor, expect a quest-line relevant to your doctor-iffic background story, and expect other characters (non-playable included) to react to you, at times acknowledging something about you, like your doctor-iness.

You, the player, would still have the option of not choosing any archetypes, but you'd be cutting yourself out of four potentially pretty cool quest lines and a number of character interactions.

Having more available archetypes than the number of starting characters immediately adds to replayablity. By choosing four or less archetypes, you are necessarily shutting the others out of that play-through, and their relating backgrounds, quest-lines, and character interactions.

:!: IMPLEMENTATION

I find it easier to get people on board for an idea when you can show them your idea is not so pie-in-the-sky or maybe as evil as it sounds. That in mind...

CHARACTER CREATION INTERFACE:

All the choices necessary to character creation should be viewable and editable simultaneously. This shouldn't be a Bauldur's Gate affair. It doesn't have to be. This is also important since implementing the above solution requires, for ease of use, that the player sees things as they're automatically, or symbiotically (I'll explain it soon), updated.

Here are the character "attributes" that should be visible: First Name, Last Name, Age, Gender, Nationality, Stats (ST, SP, etc), Skills (Brawling, Climbing, etc), Archetype (showing full written background story on screen as well).

Archetype would likely be a drop down, and upon selecting an archetype, all other applicable character attributes would be altered and the background story refreshed to show the relevant one. In some cases, some attribute customization would be limited. For instance, if it is essential to an archetypal story that the character be old, the player may only be able to tweak age four or five years from the default older age of that archetype.

So you've seen how choosing an archetype limits customization. Well, here's where symbiosis comes in. From the archetype drop down, you could choose "automatic" ...

SYMBIOSIS:

Choosing an automatic archetype will automatically select the archetype while you customize your stats. In other words, you create the character, and InXile applies to the character you've created, a relevant background and subsequent quest-line. If you continue to tweak your stats, the background may switch to something more relevant.

How does this work? By tethering an archetype to a specific but flexible array of attributes. Mainly, it could determine an archetype according to whatever the highest skill is, and then by other attributes within a relevant range.

For instance: Let's suppose that while you're customizing your new character, you give him 12 stat points in Charisma, the most skill points in Bureaucracy, and an age of 20. Now let's suppose there is an archetypal background story revolving around a young up-and-comer with aspirations to become a politician. In order for this background story to automatically apply itself, the character being created must have greater than 10 stat points in charisma, must have the most skill points in Bureaucracy, and be between 15 and 25 years of age. Thus, the Politician archetype automatically applies itself to the character you're creating WITHOUT altering any other attributes.

Supposing you named your character Winthrop Bubblegump, your character's background story might begin (with more literary flare than I can muster): "Winthrop Bubblegump, a younger man with high hopes for the return of a republic to the wasteland, [etc...]"

IMPORTANT: When choosing "automatic" archetype, the archetype, when applied, does NOT overwrite any attribute.

Only if you switch from automatic to a specific archetype, will attributes be written over - and even then, they can be tweaked.

For instance: If you've selected the Politician archetype mentioned above, and begin tweaking your stats further, you'll find that the interface 1) won't allow you to go below 11 Charisma, 2) won't allow you to lower Bureaucracy to the level of any other skill, and 3) won't allow you to set your character's age below 15 or above 25 years old.

And here's another potentially interesting element (budget permitting): If you choose Mexican as your Nationality, expect some surprise, racism, or support from npcs when they hear about your goals in the USA. If you pick the bare minimum age (15), expect some reaction to that with respect to your characters political actions or aspirations as well.

:!: SUMMED UP AGAIN

You get all the customization of the original Wasteland, but with the added bonus of being able to choose background stories (that influence character relationships and open up a character-centric quest-line) that make sense with the attributes you choose. You have the added option of having the game organically apply a background story while you're creating your character, at no additional sacrifice to customization.

:!: CHALLENGES

1. Balancing interest with symbiosis: The more specific an archetype's requisites, the harder it will be to automatically apply it when automatic archetype is selected. However, the less specific an archetype's requisites, the more general and bland a background story must be.

2. Balancing multiplicity and budget: I think 16 is the magic number. If there is enough in the budget for 16 unique background stories, (not so big) quest lines, and intermittent character interactions, this system could work beautifully.

***

(PM me if you find typos.)
Last edited by alexlovesinxile on March 18th, 2012, 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Character Creation W/ Humanizing Stories

Postby alexlovesinxile » March 18th, 2012, 8:50 pm

Just gonna give it one bump, see if it fairs better this time around. If not, I'll let it die.
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Re: Character Creation W/ Humanizing Stories

Postby Drool » March 18th, 2012, 9:17 pm

alexlovesinxile wrote:You get all the customization of the original Wasteland, but with the added bonus of being able to choose background stories (that influence character relationships and open up a character-centric quest-line) that make sense with the attributes you choose. You have the added option of having the game organically apply a background story while you're creating your character, at no additional sacrifice to customization.

This strikes me as the kind of thing that's very easy to do in a pen-n-paper game, but very difficult to do well on a computer game. When doing PnP gaming, you can come up with whatever background you want, a computer game is necessarily limited, and that kind of background stuff will quickly grow stale, or simply be reduced to "what gives me the biggest advantage?"

While there was never any background stuff for the characters in the original, it never stopped me from making them up myself.
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Re: Character Creation W/ Humanizing Stories

Postby alexlovesinxile » March 18th, 2012, 9:53 pm

Drool wrote:a computer game is necessarily limited


And yet, I think we're both fine selecting dialogue options as oppose to just imagining the social dynamics of the wastes.

Drool wrote: and that kind of background stuff will quickly grow stale


Assuming personality and quest-lines are implemented tastefully, and you don't get npcs running up to you constantly reaffirming that you chose one of your characters to be a doctor, exactly how is this more stale than anything else a crpg has to offer?

Drool wrote: or simply be reduced to "what gives me the biggest advantage?"


I'm really going to need an example of what you mean on this one, since nothing in what I described suggests to me some kind of tactical advantage to choosing an archetype.

Drool wrote: it never stopped me from making them up myself.


And what I suggested wouldn't do so either. Rather, it'd be there for people who are looking for characters to which the game world can actually react, the way the game world actually reacts to one's choices elsewhere.
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Re: Character Creation W/ Humanizing Stories

Postby Drool » March 18th, 2012, 10:06 pm

alexlovesinxile wrote:And yet, I think we're both fine selecting dialogue options as oppose to just imagining the social dynamics of the wastes.

Certain things are required to make a game playable. If there was no interaction at all, you wouldn't accomplish much.
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Re: Character Creation W/ Humanizing Stories

Postby alexlovesinxile » March 18th, 2012, 10:27 pm

Drool wrote:Certain things are required to make a game playable. If there was no interaction at all, you wouldn't accomplish much.


The game would be entirely playable with abstract cues. Interaction doesn't necessarily mean flavor. The point is, you can always imagine the flavor, yet it's preferable that the flavor be cooked by a good writer, at least in the case of dialogue. I'm just looking for a way to add that element to the characters themselves. And I think I found a pretty decent solution, regardless of what you personally see yourself able to do without it.

There are a number of people on these forums showing interest in inter-party dynamics - limitations that breed critical and problem-solving thought, just like dialogue options.

As for my idea leading to stale game-play and turning the game into a lame math mini game - those are more substantial critiques in my mind, but I've yet to see how they're relevant to what I've offered.

( Sorry if I'm coming off as kind of rough with you. )
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Re: Character Creation W/ Humanizing Stories

Postby Kide » March 19th, 2012, 1:40 am

This would definitly bring a lot more..... "feeling" to the group you create, and as said, I love to have as mutch customization as possibly, so the second system specificly sounds awesome. And if there could be around that 16 possibly arch type's I think that could bring in many different ways of having your group work together, and having other's react to your group. There would not only be thing for eatch charachter "in your mind". It just simply brings more immersion and makes the group exist more as invidual personäs as well, and not only as a group. They still have the goal of working for the ranger's but it does not change that they could have some different opinions. You would not even need to have a main charachter really, just 4 different PC controlled person's that are working together under the ranger's. That still have personalities of their own. And definitly if someone does not want this kind of arch type so to speak, then they are free not to have one.

But to me this would definitly improve my gaming experience a lot!
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Re: Character Creation W/ Humanizing Stories

Postby CanadianWolvie » March 19th, 2012, 10:33 pm

I really like this idea. Its essentially an in game mechanical hook which would give a developer something tangible to work with for what this Let's Play commentary does (you'll have to watch more than one part to see/hear what I mean):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvYcu5qaO-s

I think it could tie very well into the setting if you made each of the possible backgrounds a type of specialized training the Rangers provide for, say engineer, command, scout, sniper, medic, etc.
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Re: Character Creation W/ Humanizing Stories

Postby paultakeda » March 19th, 2012, 11:05 pm

I see nothing wrong with filling out PC history/personality with something more tangible for those who want the option. You could have a choice of "auto history" or "customize". In fact, I think that's a great idea.

Regardless of which you pick, certainly a few side quests can open up based on party make up (the pre-defined party could have all these quests already opened up due to their pre-defined histories). You could even have quests where a single character has to disband and do it alone (which was a plot element in Wasteland). These are all fine ideas and they can enrich the Wasteland world without compromising the main story concerning the rangers as a whole.

ME1 did it with some success regarding the three possible origins for Shepard leading to a different side quest, along with the side quests for each NPC that's a Bioware staple.
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Re: Character Creation W/ Humanizing Stories

Postby Oesophagus » March 19th, 2012, 11:09 pm

I don't know, man. Personally I don't like the current trend in games where every single thing has to be explicitly said and shown, without requiring the player to use their imagination at all.
I get the idea that having some backstory for your characters could have gameplay implementations, but I'm not big on having the game doing all of the storytelling for me.
It just rubs me the wrong way if the game says "Ok, you're a technician. Here's your stock technician background with stock technician stats. Now get out there and be somebody!"
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Re: Character Creation W/ Humanizing Stories

Postby paultakeda » March 19th, 2012, 11:16 pm

Oesophagus wrote:I don't know, man. Personally I don't like the current trend in games where every single thing has to be explicitly said and shown, without requiring the player to use their imagination at all.
I get the idea that having some backstory for your characters could have gameplay implementations, but I'm not big on having the game doing all of the storytelling for me.


Sure. I'm fine with just picking stuff out like WL had you pick gender and nationality. But if you add to that a birthplace from a pick list, suddenly if you walk into town a text bubble can show up from an old geezer on a porch, "Well if it isn't young Hell Razor! Back for more, eh?"

And if you picked that as a child you were a thief, the text would continue with, "Looks like you cleaned up, good for you!"
But if you picked for that character a history involving getting run out of town on account of a feud and the geezer's on the other side, you'll get immediate hostility if you "come within a hundred yards of my house!"

Then you can go to his house and start a fight.

That sort of storytelling would fit well in Wasteland and having it triggered by a set of picklists to create character history is a nice way to initiate a small story and modernize the party-based RPG without getting into the fairly deep personal histories of the NPCs in current RPGs. Those you can reserve for actual NPCs that the devs create. ;)
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Re: Character Creation W/ Humanizing Stories

Postby Oesophagus » March 19th, 2012, 11:25 pm

Well, it would add variety, and certainly replayability to the game if you added a mechanic that I remember from roguelikes, where on character creation you are given a series of questions which defined your character. I'm not saying it should define your stats, in fact I think all of these questions should have hidden variables which don't in any way influence your skills/stats. But yeah I guess if it isn't a big thing, just a flavour, I could roll with that
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Re: Character Creation W/ Humanizing Stories

Postby paultakeda » March 19th, 2012, 11:32 pm

@alexlovesinxile

After reading all of that, I'm sticking with what I wrote where history is a set of pick lists or questions that unlock certain side quests. Having archetypes that affect stats is a bit much. They're all rangers and one or all can have a medic skill. Now certainly, you might have an option to enter "previous occupation" and there you put doctor. This might require you to put 1 or 2 skill points into medicine or medic, but then again, you could just as easily say he said he was a doctor, and maybe he was, or maybe a doctor in a small town is just a quack with a medicine bag so having no medicine skill requirement is just as playable.
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Re: Character Creation W/ Humanizing Stories

Postby Kide » March 20th, 2012, 4:19 am

I would be more than fine with what paultakeda is talking about in here. That would be perfect, and would still keep the party base game spirit in my opinion.

And in a way I think it will help those who might want more of a main character, as then the more flesh out all of these charachter's are I am pretty sure everyone will have a "certan kind of favorite" in there.

I at least really look forward to being able to customize these ranger's in a group as mutch as possibly. ^^
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Re: Character Creation W/ Humanizing Stories

Postby Aeschylus » March 20th, 2012, 4:21 am

think people are confusing wastelands with a bioware chosen one sort of main character with alot of little characters that connect around them and after 90 hours of play having 3 endings....

Agree stories and tales are why people play games... but I want to feel like all hope is lost and all i can count on is the rounds in my saw-off shotgun.
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Re: Character Creation W/ Humanizing Stories

Postby CanadianWolvie » March 20th, 2012, 8:25 am

You are mistaken as to what this thread is about Aeschylus, many who have posted so far are not confusing this with those other games.

This is directly about building player made characters that make up a Ranger team. Essentially, it is asking that instead of faceless stat blocks, that the faces are variables we pick and the background aka setting hooks are of our choosing as well.

I am coming around to agreeing with Kide and paultakeda are saying but I am not sure they realize how similar they are to the OP alexlovesinxile, I believe he was just trying to make it clear that the game had prerequisites for a background so that the background made sense with the skills the player picks out for that team member.

It wouldn't make much sense if I say, gave a character no skill points in medic and then said they came from medic training, correct?
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Re: Character Creation W/ Humanizing Stories

Postby paultakeda » March 20th, 2012, 8:41 am

CanadianWolvie wrote:It wouldn't make much sense if I say, gave a character no skill points in medic and then said they came from medic training, correct?


Sure. I'm think it's okay to force skill points into skill requisites for a given set of parameters in a history profile. But I don't think it should be a major influence.

I think forcing one skill point into a medicine is sufficient. I do not want "default skill points". I see this in other games, where picking a base class or profession grants default skill points in relevant skills without deducting from the point allotment.

If the devs can figure out how to do this without unbalancing the game, then I'm open to it.

My key point is that having a customizable history that opens side quests or town perceptions is a good way of immersing the party in the world without compromising the world story. There is no main character, you just happened to create a guy from Needles so when you go to Needles the townsfolk acknowledge that he was born there. Maybe the juvies were the kids he hung out with so they are less likely to randomly mug you. Maybe the other side of town is more dangerous because he ran with the enemy gang as a kid. These are all surface alterations and they have nothing to do with plot. But they do add an immersion factor that add meaningful ties between your PCs and the world without inventing actual back stories and personalities.

Story-related back stories and filled out personalities are the NPCs you can recruit; and I trust there'll be a lot of them (how many of those $1,000 backers will be one, I wonder).
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Re: Character Creation W/ Humanizing Stories

Postby CanadianWolvie » March 20th, 2012, 8:46 am

paultakeda wrote:
CanadianWolvie wrote:It wouldn't make much sense if I say, gave a character no skill points in medic and then said they came from medic training, correct?


Sure. I'm think it's okay to force skill points into skill requisites for a given set of parameters in a history profile. But I don't think it should be a major influence.

I think forcing one skill point into a medicine is sufficient. I do not want "default skill points". I see this in other games, where picking a base class or profession grants default skill points in relevant skills without deducting from the point allotment.


I too have no love for class based systems, I far prefer the variety and flexibility in character starting builds and progression that point buy characters provide with well fleshed out skill lists like Wasteland had. So we are in agreement then, requisites cool for background, background assigning "free" skill points is not cool.

Go Ranger A-team :D

Edit: Say, if the threshold on a background is low, couldn't that mean that the team member character might possibly have more than one background type applicable? How would you feel about a team member that is both a medic and a engineer background (highly professional Ranger parents / mentors)?
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Re: Character Creation W/ Humanizing Stories

Postby paultakeda » March 20th, 2012, 8:56 am

CanadianWolvie wrote:Edit: Say, if the threshold on a background is low, couldn't that mean that the team member character might possibly have more than one background type applicable? How would you feel about a team member that is both a medic and a engineer background (highly professional Ranger parents / mentors)?


Why not? You basically define that yourself in a free skill point system simply by choosing to put points into a medicine and a mechanic/repair skill, so if you happen to have the option of defining that in a pick list history you might be forced to put one point in both skills from your allotment.

The history pick list with regards to stats is, to me, pointless (pun so intended). It's there to define the character for the player and possibly to open up side quests or different interactions with NPCs.
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Re: Character Creation W/ Humanizing Stories

Postby CanadianWolvie » March 20th, 2012, 9:16 am

Er... I wasn't arguing "Why not" to do it. I am not sure why you are being defensive when quoting me, I am not disagreeing with you, merely refining the possibilities of the idea through open dialogue. I wouldn't have any issue with a team member having more than one background either or even if all the team members shared the same background - heck, in a way they already do, they are definitely all Rangers.
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