It's gotta have grit, style, and substance.

[SXX]

I wish that the developers were free to create situations, quests and plot.
Publishers force them to make game without mature content.

With crowd funding they should be free to choose anything what can make game better.

[falloutgod13]

I wish that the developers were free to create situations, quests and plot.
Publishers force them to make game without mature content.

With crowd funding they should be free to choose anything what can make game better.

Witchet 2 wasn't fan funded.. per-say, and it had some risque content. I'm of the impression that American companies are a little uptight. Then again, some of Europe is too.

[homeslice82]

If you're talking about graphic, realistic torture-burning, then I don't think that should be used either. It doesn't fit with Wasteland 1's tone.

I don't really need something like rape in the game, but I don't like when people say something like:
Cannibalism is better than rape!11111!!!1!!!

It really awful when people try to justify barriers imposed on them by society.
People have seen rape scenes in movies and read in books, but when we talking about the game they told that is unacceptable.
In an isometric game, may be in text only (like in book), muhahahahah

You misunderstood me. Some of greatest literature has included rape, even as a central element. This isn't about "cannibalism vs. rape". It's about what's true to Wasteland. Tasteless rape jokes do not fit that bill, and neither does a "dramatic, serious" handling of rape. Those both go against the grain of Wasteland 1. The fact that rape generally turns away female consumers is another point worth considering, even though it's not the main reason to avoid it in Wasteland 2.

[infestor]

hey! if there's gonna be cannibalism i want to see my char actually eating from the dead/semi-alive body+textual description!

[SXX]

Witchet 2 wasn't fan funded.. per-say, and it had some risque content.

I think that happen because game was created for PC as basic platform.
And Witcher has high-quality graphics, Wasteland will not have.

[SXX]

Those both go against the grain of Wasteland 1.

I just to make developers free in their choice.
I do not want to play full clone of Wasteland 1 or Fallout 1/2.
Nobody want to play cloned game, its boring.

The fact that rape generally turns away female consumers is another point worth considering, even though it's not the main reason to avoid it in Wasteland 2.

Female people doesn't read book, doesn't watch cinema??

And again, you speak like marketing specialist from big publisher:
1 - We need to avoid killing of child because...
2 - We need to avoid killing of animal because...
3 - We need to avoid dropping trash because...
4 - We need to remove blood from game...
If you will think like that you just need to make Angry Birds, not Wasteland 2.

[homeslice82]

I just to make developers free in their choice.
I do not want to play full clone of Wasteland 1 or Fallout 1/2.
Nobody want to play cloned game, its boring.

I want a game that's in the spirit of Wasteland 1. If I didn't, I wouldn't be here. Why would they even bother making a sequel if they were just going to throw Wasteland 1 out the window? It would be pointless.

Female people doesn't read book, doesn't watch cinema??

THIS JUST IN: EVERY BOOK AND FILM CONTAINS RAPE

Also, from what I've read, this is a standard opinion on rape in entertainment: http://community.feministing.com/2010/01/16/mainstream-comics-whats-with-all-the-rape/

Now, unless you want Wasteland 2 to be (or contain) a serious, realistic, meditative examination of rape, which covers the aftermath, doesn't try to be funny, and is central to the game, I think it's clear that including rape would alienate women. And even if such an examination was included in the game, it would still go against the lighter and more off-the-wall tone established in Wasteland 1. Which brings me back to my initial point: I don't want rape included because it doesn't fit the spirit of Wasteland. Regardless of whether you include tasteless rape humor (which women would not want), perfunctory rape-for-realism (ditto), or a serious analysis of rape (which women might want), you stray from the original Wasteland. And, since a large portion of us are here because of the original Wasteland, I don't think that would be a great idea.

[geezer]

You're linking to a website called feministing.com? Are we supposed to take that seriously? Also how would you know what women want? You think you can speak for women? And just because every movie does not contain rape doesn't mean that some perfectly good movies don't and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. Not everything has to be produced by Disney.

[SXX]

I want a game that's in the spirit of Wasteland 1. If I didn't, I wouldn't be here. Why would they even bother making a sequel if they were just going to throw Wasteland 1 out the window? It would be pointless.

But there is lot of fans of Fallout 1/2 as well, I think most of people here is fans of F1/F2, imho.
I don't really want to see fallout-like game, but I wont to get just sequel of Wasteland without any changes.

THIS JUST IN: EVERY BOOK AND FILM CONTAINS RAPE

But lot of films contain things like that, not detailed but as part.

Also, from what I've read, this is a standard opinion on rape in entertainment: http://community.feministing.com/2010/01/16/mainstream-comics-whats-with-all-the-rape/

May be I need to show you link to "standard opinion" on game industry?
Or most of woman's don't like any games with violence, so what we must to do?

Now, unless you want Wasteland 2 to be (or contain) a serious, realistic, meditative examination of rape, which covers the aftermath, doesn't try to be funny, and is central to the game, I think it's clear that including rape would alienate women. And even if such an examination was included in the game, it would still go against the lighter and more off-the-wall tone established in Wasteland 1. Which brings me back to my initial point: I don't want rape included because it doesn't fit the spirit of Wasteland. Regardless of whether you include tasteless rape humor (which women would not want), perfunctory rape-for-realism (ditto), or a serious analysis of rape (which women might want), you stray from the original Wasteland. And, since a large portion of us are here because of the original Wasteland, I don't think that would be a great idea.

You misunderstand me.
I am not against Wasteland's spirit, I just against stereotypes.

My opinion is:
Developers should be allowed any kind of content if they have reasons to do that.
They create this "spirit" and you love it only because they mix different things with a great balance.
If you limit developers by saying "you shouldn't do that or that" game will be like as "Fallout 3" of bethesda when they made 99% copy of fallout 1 and 2... and they totally failed because of that.

[homeslice82]

You're linking to a website called feministing.com? Are we supposed to take that seriously?

Considering that I'm talking about the views of women on rape in entertainment, I would certainly expect you to.

Also how would you know what women want? You think you can speak for women?

I've read my share of interviews, and this is a standard view on the topic of rape. I don't claim to know anything more than that.

And just because every movie does not contain rape doesn't mean that some perfectly good movies don't and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

Yeah, I know. But that wasn't my point.

Not everything has to be produced by Disney.

Excluding rape now makes things family-friendly schlock. I didn't realize it until now, but you're right.

[Seriously00]

I think it's complete immaturity to think rape is the pinnacle of "mature" topics. In my opinion, if a topic of rape was introduced into an adult themed game such as this, it should be a lot more than "OMG I raped that girl it was epic."

Thinking about it, I came up with this scenario which handles rape and many other adult themes and philosophy.

--

At a town, you find a flier for the bounty of an escaped convicted rapist paid for by the victim of the rape. The victim gives you the name, description, and possible whereabouts of the rapist. The bounty is for the capture, either dead or alive, of the rapist as well as an added bonus if you bring him back castrated/tortured but still alive.

You accept the quest and go in search of the man. Eventually you come upon a makeshift community of irradiated and dying people. Through some sleuthing, you find out the rapist is in the community. However, the manner in which you find who the man is is a little disheartening. It turns out that the man came upon the village only a few weeks before after a long period of time surviving in the wasteland. The community gave him food, water, and shelter and the man, feeling indebted and being in reasonably good health, decided to help the community through helping tend the worse of the sick in the village. The villagers talked very highly of the rapist but were sorrowful that he too was now afflicted with radiation sickness and was probably doomed to die a horrendous death himself.

At this point you can decide whether you pursue and engage the man personally or turn back. If you choose to engage the man in conversation you and discuss everything from his time in the village to the crimes he committed in the past. You'll discover that the man decided to help the village as penance for his crimes and he knew that helping the village was most likely going to kill him. If you press him, he's willing to come with you alive so that you can claim the bounty. Beyond that, you have the option to kill him or torture him too.

--

In total, I think such a quest would be very appropriate in the setting and would touch on many different adult themes beyond the typical (lol rape) and I would love to see stories like this within the game.

[homeslice82]

But there is lot of fans of Fallout 1/2 as well, I think most of people here is fans of F1/F2, imho.
I don't really want to see fallout-like game, but I wont to get just sequel of Wasteland without any changes.

You have a point, but Fargo has already made it clear in an interview that this is not going to be Wasteland-in-name-only. They plan to stick to the original to a large extent. With that in mind, I don't think including rape would mesh with the original tone, as I've said.

And FWIW, Fallout didn't have rape either.

But lot of films contain things like that, not detailed but as part.

They do. But they aren't "chick flicks"--films whose profits come mostly from women. That was my point: just because films contain rape and women watch films, it doesn't follow that women watch films with rape (meditative or not). Some do, some don't. I'm not saying that WL2 should be a chick flick or anything of that nature--I'm just pointing out that your conclusion didn't totally fit.

Now, unless you want Wasteland 2 to be (or contain) a serious, realistic, meditative examination of rape, which covers the aftermath, doesn't try to be funny, and is central to the game, I think it's clear that including rape would alienate women. And even if such an examination was included in the game, it would still go against the lighter and more off-the-wall tone established in Wasteland 1. Which brings me back to my initial point: I don't want rape included because it doesn't fit the spirit of Wasteland. Regardless of whether you include tasteless rape humor (which women would not want), perfunctory rape-for-realism (ditto), or a serious analysis of rape (which women might want), you stray from the original Wasteland. And, since a large portion of us are here because of the original Wasteland, I don't think that would be a great idea.

You misunderstand me.
I am not against Wasteland's spirit, I just against stereotypes.

My opinion is:
Developers should be allowed any kind of content if they have reasons to do that.
They create this "spirit" and you love it only because they mix different things with a great balance.
If you limit developers by saying "you shouldn't do that or that" game will be like as "Fallout 3" of bethesda when they made 99% copy of fallout 1 and 2... and they totally failed because of that.

You make a good point here. I don't want the developers to be boxed in--I just want them to make a good game and a true sequel to WL2.

Let me rephrase slightly: if the developers completely stick to the original tone and include rape, I can't imagine how it will fit. If they scrap the original tone to some extent and then include a meaningful rape-related element (think The Virgin Spring), then it might fit. I would prefer a totally faithful sequel over a heavily changed one, but I'll admit that either has the potential to be good.

[SXX]

Some do, some don't.

The same for everything what are not rape: politics, killing or cannibalism.

I would prefer a totally faithful sequel over a heavily changed one, but I'll admit that either has the potential to be good.

Ok, I leave you with your own opinion about that, we just have completely different vision of this project.

Because I'll be happy even this game will be really different than Wasteland 1 or Fallout series.
I just want old-school RPG game and don't want to limit developers somehow.
There is too much differences between 1988 game with 2D and 3D RPG to talk about "true or false" things. IMHO

I believe in development creativity and modding, If I found game need extreme violence I've make mod with that content.
Or you can install mod which remove everything out of game, I think that can be great solution as well.

.. added after:
PS: May be you are not fan of fallout, but please read this articles:
http://www.nma-fallout.com/article.php?id=60785
Its have some words about bad thinks in gameplay. Really interesting!

[Srift]

UPDATE:
I just want to be clear to everyone and the developers. I made this post to simply say we need those "heavy" themes that made Wasteland, Fallout 1 and Fallout 2 so successful and of course everything else that made it successful. I enjoyed those games for its moral choices and survivability matters. For me its all about the story and the world not so much over the top with violence.

Owen said it best:

owenmp » March 18th, 2012, 11:52 am
Seeing fields of skulls and skeletons where each footstep would produce a crunching sound would be cool. Have many buildings with blackened silhouettes of people, the only traces of people vaporized from nuclear explosions.

That's what my point was about. More vision artistically as Fallout 3 felt bare in that regard.

But I didn't mention rape or children stuff. Personally I think that wouldn't add any element to the game. It would be overkill in other words. So lets please try to keep the topic focused on grit, style, and substance with that violence theme that was common in Wasteland, Fallout and Fallout 2. There is a difference between violence that makes its point and over the top violence that comes off as crude..just watch that rubbish "The Human Centipede 2". Just my opinion anyways..

[SXX]

My finished vision about iolence and adult themes (and anything else) in Wasteland 2 game.

I think every player can have their own way to go.
Game shouldn't force you to do something good or bad, but more possibilities its usually better as long as they going with your playing style and choices.
Very very good player shouldn't be always asked like "Do you want to make this very very bad thing?".
Yes, he should be allowed to turn into "evil side", but this evil side should be hidden from him in tons of dialogues and choices.
Its stupid when some bad guy say "May be explode whole city?" in start of dialogue.
That make him seems like real stupid because he will be killed in same time with 99%.
But If good player want to explode city he should have some way to do that.

In Icewind Dale you was allowed to turn your karma into black in center of game by killing normal people.
Its help you to easily go forward.

I think that concept is perfect for any RPG game.

[alexandergr]

The entire question is whether the game is going to be "grim, violent and ugly". That's what we're deciding here. Seeing as the first game didn't fit that mold, I'm inclined to agree with owenmp. Wasteland was never grimdark. It didn't "tackle the ugly underbelly of humanity". It was pulpy-absurd-serious, with a touch of black comedy. Wasteland 2 doesn't need rape for the sake of realism. In fact, including rape would be inconsistent with the original game. So, when the subject matter is a huge turnoff for 50% of the world's population, and when it actually doesn't fit the tone of the game, what do you do? You don't include it.

I don't mind not including it to be true to the setting. What I'm arguing is that if "It's gotta have grit, violence and adult themes. (18+)" as the topic title is, then rape is a part of it. And not because I'm a sick fuck or something but because it is horrible.

I just looked that up. Note that I never said that you couldn't make jokes about graphic rape: I said that you could only make tasteless jokes about it. That's an apt description of that movie. You may find it funny (I don't), but that doesn't make it any less tasteless.

Get of your high horse. Don't confuse your opinion with reality. My parents find it tasteless to joke even about death. Many people do. Here, joke about it. http://www.worldproutassembly.org/images/iraq-dead-bodies.jpg

There is a difference between violence that makes its point and over the top violence that comes off as crude..just watch that rubbish "The Human Centipede 2". Just my opinion anyways..[/b]

What human centipede? Are you kidding me? Who asked for something like that? The point is, while rape is a horrible thing, the developers have no reason to shy away from it just to satisfy some people's sensitivities.
There is a big difference between 'Human centipede' and 'Antichrist', 'Martyrs', 'Dogville' or 'Apocalypse now'. All are violent but in the first, violence is the point. In the others, the point is something else and violence is just the medium.

If other forms of entertainment can do it without feeling guilt, games can do it too. It's a game for adults after all.

[homeslice82]

Get of your high horse. Don't confuse your opinion with reality. My parents find it tasteless to joke even about death. Many people do. Here, joke about it. http://www.worldproutassembly.org/images/iraq-dead-bodies.jpg

There are degrees and intentions--which you, apparently, are incapable of seeing. Taste lies in these degrees and intentions. Whether you find something funny or not is subjective, but tastefulness is not, when you hammer it out. Here's an example using a familiar black comedy film.

1. Nuking something in real life is clearly horrible.

2. It is the director's intention to satirize the people who might nuke something.

3. A character rides the nuke to ground zero in an exaggerated way.

The director's intention (satire) is a reasonably sophisticated form of comedy, and there are quite a few degrees of separation between the subject matter (nuking something) and the execution (the exaggerated, unrealistic nuke-ride). The result is not in bad taste. You might find it funny or not (I'm indifferent, in this case), but that's irrelevant.

Now for a bad taste joke.

1. Killing someone in real life is clearly horrible.

2. It is some guy's goal to shock some other guy.

3. Some guy #1 sends some guy #2 a graphic image of dead bodies, possibly with the subtitle "owned".

The tastelessness comes in with the lowbrow intention (shock) and the degrees of removal from the actual subject (actual pictures of dead bodies).

Get it now, bro?

[alexandergr]

There are degrees and intentions that you are incapable of seeing. Apparently you thought I was joking and you rated my "joke" as tasteless. It seems that you think that the picture I posted was some kind of trick-joke when the url is pretty clear about the content.

It was not a joke. It was a way to show you that death is also awful. But we can still joke about it. There is no single truth of what is tasteful and what not. Some people eat this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balut_%28egg%29. They don't think it's horrible. In some tribes, the bigger the plate you stuff in your lip, the better. In ancient Greece there was a thinner line of what kind of relationship is acceptable. British humour is considered awful by many people. Joking about death is a no-no for many. Joking about religion is also a no-no for millions. Welcome to different tastes.

So, just because you don't find something tasteful, it doesn't mean that it is the universal truth. Thus, get of your high horse.

[GROUNDZERO]

Also, from what I've read, this is a standard opinion on rape in entertainment: http://community.feministing.com/2010/01/16/mainstream-comics-whats-with-all-the-rape/

Feministing? Really? How many feminists do you know that played Fallout(y) games? How many women are fans of Fallout?

And, reading the article that you posted:

"I truly believe a good story can be told involving rape, in comics in particular. But not in superhero books, and not by the guys writing them."

"Rape would alienate women!" Are you a woman? Because if not you have no authority to speak in their behalf.

By the Way, have some REAL science, junior:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/all ... -they-mean

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/psy ... -fantasies

"From 1973 through 2008, nine surveys of women's rape fantasies have been published. They show that about four in 10 women admit having them (31 to 57 percent) with a median frequency of about once a month. Actual prevalence of rape fantasies is probably higher because women may not feel comfortable admitting them."

[Elerond]

Rape is touchy subject, because it is sex, which is touchy subject itself. And it has universal evil stigma, when you can found reasons why people kill each other, or why they steal, or why sometimes torture is necessary, but there is no such reason for rape. People who rape do it only for self pleasure, dominace, to cause suffering/shame etc.. So our society usualy sees more disgusting than other violent crimes.

And tasteful rape as part of story in games. You can find couple good examples from Biowares games about this. In Dragon Age: Orgins there are several metions about rape and raping, but as storywise best example in my opinion is city elfs orgins story where your characters cousin (or would be wife) is raped by noble man, then game makes you to chose how to react that. Another example is in dlc which tolds Lelianas orgin story, where you play as Leliana and you lover betrays you, which leads to scene which gives you an image that you (Leliana) is raped by gang of soldiers. Bioware has also approached this subject in their older games, in Neverwinter Nights in act 2(?) there is a human girl which wants to be adventure and (try) con money from your character and later in same act this girl is capturerd and raped by orc bandit (and you need to rescue her) if you did't but stop to her idiocy/dreams/choose your own term. And in Baldur's Gate 2 you there is few scenes which draws image of rape. In this games mentions of rape/raped person/rapist are meanigful part of story and I don't see anything against similar uses in Wasteland 2, except I think WL2 tune is bit more comedic than thouse game which I metioned, but till I am not agaist this kind of reffering to subject.

But I don't see any justifications to that your characters could perform such heinous act, but simple evilness, which is why I do want see such option in game much more less than have meaningless romances with npcs.