Skip to content


Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Suggestions for what Wasteland 2 should or could include.

Moderator: Rangers

Top Down vs Isometric

Top down
53
8%
Isometric(-like)
492
70%
Flexible camera (switch between top down and isometric)
153
22%
 
Total votes : 698


Re: Top Down vs Isometric View

Postby Rick » March 18th, 2012, 11:06 am

I want to place in this discussion my 5-th cents.

Isometric view with prerendered graphics is very cool. I like this (you love this), and i'm a big fun of isometric view and tiles. But tiles and perendered graphics it's a hard work for artist if you want recieve after release the game - good and fine picture like Fallout, Arcanum, Planescape torments, Temple of Elemental Evil or etс.

You must remember three things:
Firstly. Original resolution of many old games 640x480 or 800x600, today people want looks game with resolution a minimum 1280x1024. What i want to say? Artists of enXile must have a lot of work with graphic content.
In earlier games developers have a limit in resolution. It was bad, but it was the economy. Today developers have no economy - gamers love a pretty picture.
I named its - problem ONE (time of development)

Secondly. 2D content have no way to customization level. Even you used many object tiles. Tile and sprite objects have no rotation opportunity. And have no reuse in other locations (if backgrounds maked like Planscape Torment - where developer make complete and full prerender in all locations). You mast remember - if you make unique background like a big-damn-art you mast ready for surprises. Somethimes somebady knock in your door and be say:
Big Boss: John... in 283-location, background number 308 we want move wooden box.
John answer: ^$^($@... i love you guys! I thought that I would spend weekends with family!

Thirdly. Brian Fargo & Co have only ~1.5 year to development of this game. They must find a way to make the game fast. There are many ways. For example, a combined graphic. 3D character models (not to make thousands of sprites of NPC and characters) and 2D graphic for location, worldmap & etc.

If someone suddenly asks my opinion. I answer:
If I did game, it would have chosen the following provisions:
- 3D models for Characters
- 3D-objects and "3D-tiles" for level design
- 2D graphics for worldmap, menus, inerfaces and additional graphic content

What i mean talking about "3D-sprites"?
3D-objects like that placed on 3D-level, or maybe on 2D-level.

Image
At any time, you can rotate an object (if this object model), a grid mash it, put on the ground, "dip" in the sand. And it will always be one model. It's - economy. Economy of time developers. Put model on level - and forget.
If developer need 2D sprite - He must render this model in different angles, and after this build giant library with this sprites. You working with Fallout Tactics Engine? (i mean FT:BOS editor). It's cool. But very hard for designer. thousands sprites, problem with a levels, problem with sorting tiles. This work "eat" lot of time.

It'a a problem of all tile engines, you have many objects - ready for lot of sprites.

Image
Now think about it. This is a vintage drink machine. ONE machine. And if you need five or ten? But what if objects in the game 200-400? You make a render for each sprite will for every possible angle? 12 sprites on each object?

Don't answer "Yes" - You have no idea how serious problem you have in future after this decision.

What about camera? If you want isometric - game camera can be changed. Change the camera from Perspective (with a specific FOV) to the Ortographic mode. Disable zoom. Аnd you'll get the same isometry! Classic isometry.

But - with dynamic light sources, with some technologies, honest shadows, etc.

Do not be afraid of a 3D graphics. All her problems because many developers do not know how to "cook" 3D. Look at this picture. This is a 3D, without aliasing filtering and other graphic fint. It looks good. Because it's done as needed, not as others do.
"In development" screen:
Image
Full resolution: http://lionwoodblog.com/pictures/hi/serenity.jpg
(3D scene have no shadows, have only one dynamic light, it's not a fake - real time model. A have no time to finish this scene, because (laugh) i paint Wasteland 2 fan-arts)
http://wasteland.inxile-entertainment.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=314

If you add to this scene beautiful earth, sand, a bunch of rusty pieces of iron, automobiles - would be great. And this bar can be used in another state. In a thousand kilometers out of here. Repainted textures, removing iron and sand, adding rocks and other objects. And mirracle - another bar.

But if you draw it in 2D - it will be the same everywhere in game world.

Draw by artists hands all what you look in the world - cool. Funny. Great. But the guys of Brian Fargo is not have 3 or 5 years out to make this game a dream with unreal fully painted and unique graphics. Even if Fargo hire lot of tallented artist. This task for big-damn companies or for developers have no time limits.

Fargo have limit in time and have limit in crew.

P.S.
I also hate 3D and I hate to do it (just kidding). I really love most of all 2D graphics. But I am well aware of the possibilities of 3D graphics. The main thing - to skillfully use tools.

P.P.S.
The most important thing guys - it's not graphic. Game-play is a queen, god and the lord of any game. The graphics, the code - is vassals, without the right to vote.

Therefore, it does not matter, isometry, 2D, 3D, first person mode - all of is vanity of vanities. The MAIN - game itself.

Why do you love the old games? For the graphics? For the shaders? For 3D? (smile)
User avatar
Rick
 
Posts: 113
Joined: March 15th, 2012, 5:17 am
Location: Russia, Saint-Peterburg


Re: Top Down vs Isometric View

Postby Brother None » March 18th, 2012, 11:16 am

Project Serenity! I remember that.

Good contribution, Rick. Very solid points some may be missing.
Thomas Beekers
Line Producer
User avatar
Brother None
 
Posts: 1281
Joined: March 5th, 2012, 1:26 pm


Re: Top Down vs Isometric View

Postby Rick » March 18th, 2012, 11:36 am

to Brother None

I work on different games for years. 12 years ago I knew nothing. Now I know a little more. And this knowledge makes me cautious in the selection of technologies.

Project Serenity... eh-h... it's a long story. It's more misery than happiness. Cut out funds for develop it is very difficult task. And this game - always game of the second echelon. In the First echelon - games that allows you to earn money. Such is the life of an indie developer, if he does not want his family to starve.

Therefore, I am immensely excited for Brian Fargo, his team and the Wasteland-2. And for the fact that the post-apocalyptic games have more fans, and for that we all support him in this matter. This is a great thing. Great times.

And I'm glad I lived to see these events (laughs).

Brian Fargo has long does the games. I think he easy to pick up the best technology (maybe with a inXile Tech-Advisors), that be focus was on the game and not on "thingies".
User avatar
Rick
 
Posts: 113
Joined: March 15th, 2012, 5:17 am
Location: Russia, Saint-Peterburg


Re: Top Down vs Isometric View

Postby Brother None » March 18th, 2012, 11:40 am

Rick wrote:Project Serenity... eh-h... it's a long story. It's more misery than happiness. Cut out funds for develop it is very difficult task. And this game - always game of the second echelon. In the First echelon - games that allows you to earn money. Such is the life of an indie developer, if he does not want his family to starve.


Yeah, I kind of figured when we stopped hearing about it. Too bad :(

Rick wrote:Brian Fargo has long does the games. I think he easy to pick up the best technology (maybe with a inXile Tech-Advisors), that be focus was on the game and not on "thingies".


Very true. Not to mention the tech side of InXile has always been very competent even when their games failed to excite.
Thomas Beekers
Line Producer
User avatar
Brother None
 
Posts: 1281
Joined: March 5th, 2012, 1:26 pm


Re: Top Down vs Isometric View

Postby Rick » March 18th, 2012, 12:01 pm

Yeah, I kind of figured when we stopped hearing about it. Too bad

Never mind. Game is not cancelled. Never cancelled, I would say. The game is being developed in background mode.

As say Malcolm Reynolds:

Mel: - We're still flying.
Saimon: - That's not much...
Mel: -That's enough.
User avatar
Rick
 
Posts: 113
Joined: March 15th, 2012, 5:17 am
Location: Russia, Saint-Peterburg


Re: Top Down vs Isometric View

Postby Wesser » March 18th, 2012, 12:47 pm

I won't talk about 2D and 3D because I've already did so on this forum, but regarding Isometric vs Top Down.

My opinion is that, while I love the Isometric camera, Top Down could still work if it's well done. I'll like to set Alien Swarm as an example. Another genre, I know, but the game managed to achieve success for its developers (a group of modders if I recall correctly) and it didn't present any "flashy graphics" yet people liked the game because of the simple and fun gameplay.

I think that Wasteland 2, or any other RPG out there, could benefit from both a good looking Isometric presentation or a Top Down view, and it doesn't take a AAA budget to do so. As a fan of old school RPGs I put my money into Wasteland 2 because of that promise of coming back to the old ways, to the REAL RPG no matter how it looks.

Of course, I don't expect WL2 to be a DOS game, I'd like to see some fresh graphics (even if that's not the main point of the project) but the real point should be to recover a genre that went downhill during this last decade. I mean, Action-RPG? Really? They're not bad, but most are just "action-adventure games with complex storylines", and in some cases you just play through that storyline having little to no impact in anything major (like in Dragon Age 2 or Mass Effect 3).

Both were good games, just nothing more, and -IMO- worse than the previous titles in their franchises.

Regarding Top Down view in Alien Swarm, here you have an example:

Image
Wesser
 
Posts: 14
Joined: March 13th, 2012, 11:53 am


Re: Top Down vs Isometric View

Postby infestor » March 18th, 2012, 1:02 pm

Rick wrote:I want to place in this discussion my 5-th cents.

Isometric view with prerend....


- hello, is this inXile?
- yes
- HIRE THIS GUY!


joke aside, very nice and informative post Rick.
"People who get up early in the morning cause war, death and famine."
—Banksy
User avatar
infestor
 
Posts: 278
Joined: March 5th, 2012, 5:38 pm
Location: København, Danmark


Re: Top Down vs Isometric View

Postby Rick » March 18th, 2012, 1:30 pm

infestor
- hello, is this inXile?
- yes
- HIRE THIS GUY!


If inXile make me offer - I would agree with closed eyes (laughs).
I promised myself - never work on large firms, and never lose my independence. But for the such things as "Wasteland 2" - i can break the word.

This is a epic event. "Post-Nuclear-Old-Man" rises from the ashes of war, takes in a fist 1,333,258 (after 29 days much more), and kicking great-uncles-publishers ass. Punch.

Precedent.

Tim Schafer is the first point. Brian Fargo, the second point. Two points made ​​to draw the line. Line - this is not a precedent. Line - is the future.

joke aside, very nice and informative post Rick.

Thanks. I be glad to help. If this can help - it's great. If not - ... i said bad. )
User avatar
Rick
 
Posts: 113
Joined: March 15th, 2012, 5:17 am
Location: Russia, Saint-Peterburg


Re: Top Down vs Isometric View

Postby Badunius » March 18th, 2012, 2:03 pm

in case of true top-down view, 2D animated sprites could be easily rotated.
Top down view also provide more tactical information without f**king with camera positioning
(JA3, for example, is rotating camera with mouse move while holding Alt button... ALT...BUTTON...)
2D animated sprites could be made with high resolution and therefore
could be displayed at higher resolutions and easily zoomed in and out

yes, you cannot see much from above, just head, overall clothing and weapon, perhaps
but why not include isometric/portrait graphics of critters and units on their char sheet
(or something like that)
why do you need to see their shining armor all the way from any angle?
is this a game about contemplation?
— Oldfag... / — I'm 37... / — What? / — I'm 37, I'm not old...
User avatar
Badunius
 
Posts: 197
Joined: March 15th, 2012, 10:24 pm
Location: Soviet Russia


Re: Top Down vs Isometric View

Postby Geras » March 18th, 2012, 2:09 pm

Rick wrote:If inXile make me offer - I would agree with closed eyes (laughs).
I promised myself - never work on large firms, and never lose my independence. But for the such things as "Wasteland 2" - i can break the word.


Dude, I hold my fingers crossed for that, because you seem like a nice fella ;)
User avatar
Geras
 
Posts: 43
Joined: March 6th, 2012, 4:52 am


Re: Top Down vs Isometric View

Postby Celtic927 » March 18th, 2012, 2:19 pm

My vote is for ISO...
-CHris
Cooking up Blood Sausage since 1988.
Celtic927
 
Posts: 236
Joined: March 15th, 2012, 10:40 am


Re: Top Down vs Isometric View

Postby Rick » March 18th, 2012, 3:16 pm

to Geras
Dude, I hold my fingers crossed for that, because you seem like a nice fella

Thanks pal. It's important for me.

I think this community, fans of Fallout and Wasteland more friendly than many net-sources in my country. Here is warm. Yes, "more friendly" it's a good word for this atmosphere. Only one site boasts the same comfort. Place, where i "born" how a net-person many years ago. Fallout.RU

If you want to look more pictures and etc. come to my old personal gallery. Maybe art says for you much more and better than i speak. Sometimes i wonder how people understood me (laugh).

Sorry it's old pictures. I have no time for drawing now.

But i say myself - Wasteland it's a holy, and my hands himself stretches to the pen. Start painting and can't stop. A few hours later i'm finish first big paint. Not a sketch. Full sized art.


And to Moderator.
Sorry for my offtopic.
User avatar
Rick
 
Posts: 113
Joined: March 15th, 2012, 5:17 am
Location: Russia, Saint-Peterburg


Re: Top Down vs Isometric View

Postby Psychochink_ » March 18th, 2012, 6:46 pm

Isometric
Psychochink_
 
Posts: 27
Joined: March 15th, 2012, 9:48 pm


Re: Top Down vs Isometric View

Postby Bozar » March 19th, 2012, 10:52 am

In the name of the god damn Frank Horrigan, this better be Isometric in the vein of Baldur's Gate, Fallout Tactics etc. Do not make this some shitty top down view where we see nothing but head and shoulders of our characters, that is what totally destroys the game for me at least. When are the mods here going to make a poll regarding this? I have no doubt the major part of the backers want Isometric, and that is what Wasteland 2 should be for all the different reasons. I have submited my $5000 and I'm sorry to say, but if they are going with GTA top-down view, then I'm outtie. Please don't dissapoint us Mr. Fargo.
Bozar
 
Posts: 22
Joined: March 19th, 2012, 10:41 am


Re: Top Down vs Isometric View

Postby krellen » March 19th, 2012, 10:59 am

Bozar wrote: if they are going with GTA top-down view

What if it's Wasteland top-down view, with 2d sprites to represent things in a more full-front or isometric style?
in my opinion
User avatar
krellen
 
Posts: 1165
Joined: March 14th, 2012, 11:24 am
Location: The City in New Mexico


Re: Top Down vs Isometric View

Postby Bozar » March 19th, 2012, 11:09 am

Well, this is the kind of Isometric style I hope they will be going with, but with their own art direction specific for Wasteland 2 of course. EDIT: HOLY SHIT! They finally added a poll!

Image
Image
Image
Image
Bozar
 
Posts: 22
Joined: March 19th, 2012, 10:41 am


Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby Brother None » March 19th, 2012, 12:28 pm

Bumping this one up to note that indeed a poll has been added, though really I think it's kind of between Isometric and flex. Can't see top-down winning out.
Thomas Beekers
Line Producer
User avatar
Brother None
 
Posts: 1281
Joined: March 5th, 2012, 1:26 pm


Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby DerRidda » March 19th, 2012, 12:36 pm

If the game is fully 3D I see absolutely no reason not to allow both perspectives with no more than the press of a single hot-key.
This would also allow for free camera rotation without anything being sacrificed at all.
DerRidda
 
Posts: 27
Joined: March 15th, 2012, 5:15 pm


Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby Zylinski » March 19th, 2012, 3:09 pm

Voted iso. It will bring much more detail and graphical atmosphere to the game. Did not vote for the switchable-mode-thing, that will just force the developers to make huge amounts of extra graphics, time which they could spend on better things.

If the game is 3D a button to switch perspective isn't ok either. That would force the team to do additional lightning and modelling work. Lightning is much easier to make really nice from one, locked angle. Locked, well designed and implemented camera is better than two cameras which might not be as good.
Karl Zylinski - Swedish game programming student
Twitter: KarlZylinski
Blog: http://zylinski.se
User avatar
Zylinski
 
Posts: 37
Joined: March 10th, 2012, 12:22 pm
Location: Skövde, Sweden


Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby mugurelioan » March 19th, 2012, 3:21 pm

Isometric, Commandos 3 style
mugurelioan
 
Posts: 1
Joined: March 19th, 2012, 3:17 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Board index

Return to What to Include

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 0 guests