How about the developers tell us examples of oldschool RPGs.

[MDF_MadDogFargo]

How about the developers provide us with examples of games that they consider 'oldschool RPG.' That basic decision should be up to them. But they should tell us does that mean games like Ulitma VII or old NES and SNES games like Dragon Warrior 4 and Secret of Mana or PS1 games like Final Fantasy VII? I think we need to know what we are working with to make other meaningful suggestions about the game because the decision of what kind of 'oldschool' you are nostalgic for will render 99% of suggestions irrelevant. But of course we would like to see something more sophisticated than an old game. It turns out there is a pretty good engine that can do that kind of thing called RPG Maker. The current version is VX but some say XP had better artwork, and there are open-source derivatives of them in development. One of these choices might be the easiest idea to use because with the engine decided on, the developers can spend more time working out characters and backstories and the character interaction and skills systems which IMO are more important decisions.

[Ulrox]

Taken from wasteland 2's kickstarter page:"Brian Fargo founded Interplay Productions (By Gamers, For Gamers) in 1983 where he went on to produce and finance some of the biggest RPG's made like Bard's Tale, Fallout 1 and 2, Stonekeep, Dragon Wars, Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, and more. Creating a new Wasteland will be a point of pride in the long history of games."

Those are pretty good exambles of old school rpg's... You're talking about old school japaneese rpg's which aren't really rpg's at all. Whereas team inxile is making an oldschool western rpg.

[doady]

The old Japanese RPGs do suck, but saying that they aren't really RPGs? Uh, okay.

I have my reasons for preferring western RPGs, but the reasons are not based on some sort of elitist definiton of RPGs.

In the Japanese RPG, success of any action is based on the character's skill (i.e. the stats), rather than the player's skill (e.g. hand-eye coordination, etc.), and in this way it is no different the western RPG. Japanese, western, they're all RPGs.

But yeah, the developers never mentioned JRPGs, and Brian Fargo's background is full of western RPGs, so there is no need to speculate on the type of RPG they want to make here.

[Ulrox]

The old Japanese RPGs do suck, but saying that they aren't really RPGs? Uh, okay.

Roleplaying games are all about being able to play a certain role. Jrpg's doesn't allow you to play any role. You can just sit back and watch the story unfold. I never said I dont like JRPG's. I've played quite a few. The new final fantasy 13-2 actually allows you to choose what to say in some circumstances so its getting closer to being a roleplaying game.

[krellen]

Roleplaying games are all about being able to play a certain role.

This is not the defining characteristic of "Roleplaying Game". The most recent Extra Credits was wrong.

[Lucius]

I wouldn't say old school jrpg's suck. Chrono Trigger is one of the greatest games to have ever been made. Many, many would people would agree. Also the first Final Fantasy had some similar qualities to Wasteland like a 4 member, player created party. But yeah, WL2 isn't going to be a jrpg and will clearly be a successor to western RPG's.

[MDF_MadDogFargo]

Taken from wasteland 2's kickstarter page:"Brian Fargo founded Interplay Productions (By Gamers, For Gamers) in 1983 where he went on to produce and finance some of the biggest RPG's made like Bard's Tale, Fallout 1 and 2, Stonekeep, Dragon Wars, Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, and more. Creating a new Wasteland will be a point of pride in the long history of games."

But yeah, the developers never mentioned JRPGs, and Brian Fargo's background is full of western RPGs, so there is no need to speculate on the type of RPG they want to make here.

But between Bard's Tale and Wasteland and Dragon Wars (which most gamers today have probably never played) and Fallout 1 and 2 there is a very different style of game. Between Fallout and Baldu'rs Gate and Icewind Dale there is a huge engine difference as well. Wasteland itself has more in common stylewise with a text adventure or a roguelike than Fallout. So mentioning those games together doesn't really narrow down the style of game.

Those are pretty good exambles of old school rpg's... You're talking about old school japaneese rpg's which aren't really rpg's at all. Whereas team inxile is making an oldschool western rpg.

Since you make the comment that "those aren't really rpg's" I will excuse your ignorance because you are probably like me, and haven't tried them. But then, I grew up playing Dragon Warrior for NES and the JRPG is really evolved from that style, which is more similar to the Bard's Tale/Wasteland/Dragon Wars/Wizardry era of games than they are to the tactical Baldur's Gate style of game, so they are carrying on a longer tradition. The Japanese visual novel also owes much of its inspiration from that style of RPGs, which are also still popular there.

There is a nascent western RPG indie game community making RPG Maker games that are carrying on that style as well. You probably haven't played those games like Aveyond, or Arvale, or Millenium, or Laxius Force. But I will forgive you for that because I never did either until I did recently when I took the time to investigate them. They don't make a lot of money and they aren't very well known but they are a legitimate art form with more integrity than the current crop of RPG-cum-FPS games and that style of game deserves some respect and consideration since they are relatively cheap to build which frees up time for the character and story innovations.

[Arne]

I can blarb a bit about old school RPG games, regardless whether anyone's interested or not!

I think you can see the influence of the early Ultima games (1980+) on many early Japanese games, such as the original Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy games. Before that, we had Adventure ('80), which tried to do translate RPG stuff into something graphical, and before that, the more complex text based games like Zork (late 1970's). I'm not too familiar with the Wizardry series, but it appears to have been very influential too. Anyways, there are several layers of "old-school". I'm not sure if I would think of Baldur's Gate as old-school, myself.

Overview of the Ultima Series on Mobygames.

The American D&D setting also influenced Japanese (action-RPG) games, such as Xanadu ('85), an action RPG (though the series is now very diverse!). IIRC, the developer almost got sued and had to hastily change some designs around. Its precursor, Dragon Slayer ('84) is also interesting, combining Sokoban (pushing crates) game mechanics with action RPG elements. Like in Adventure, you can only carry one item around at a time. Hydlide ('85) was another interesting action RPG from this era, and it shares some features with the earlier arcade game Tower of Druaga ('84). Both feature "Ropers" and other monsters from the D&D setting for example. Zelda 1 borrowed a lot from these games, it appears, but moved further away from stats into action territory. Thinking about in, none of these games were heavy on NPC stuff, perhaps with the exception of Xanadu. Modern "jRPG" games are quite different of course!

Bokosuka Wars ('85) is a tile based game where you assimilate armies and level them up, but it's difficult to play today. Being Swedish, I'm only familiar with a small selection of the more popular Japanese games. Moving onto post apocalyptic games, Last Armageddon ('88) has to be mentioned as one of my favourites, as it's take on the postapoc setting is rather unusual. The Saga series (aka Final Fantasy Legends (just by name to increase sales)) is also noteworthy to me, because of its colorful, diverse setting where you can play a party of robots, monsters, humans, whatever, armed with a mix of swords, guns and magic.

Galactic Gladiators and Galactic Adventures ('82) are two obscure American scifi games where you manage a party, going on whatever adventures that you fancy. Surprisingly deep stuff for 1982, but the UI has aged badly. Certainly worth checking out if you like "old stuff that's surprisingly complex".

[MDF_MadDogFargo]

The old Japanese RPGs do suck, but saying that they aren't really RPGs? Uh, okay.

Roleplaying games are all about being able to play a certain role. Jrpg's doesn't allow you to play any role. You can just sit back and watch the story unfold. I never said I dont like JRPG's. I've played quite a few. The new final fantasy 13-2 actually allows you to choose what to say in some circumstances so its getting closer to being a roleplaying game.

But Fallout 3 lets you "choose what you want to say" but there is a limited opportunity for roleplaying in this "western" style game too. The text adventure is the common ancester of all these games, and tabletop games before those. The FPS RPG also gives you an essentially linear game to play, since all of the choices lead to one ending. Of course there are cliches and linear gameplay in JRPGs too, but that's because of the limited imagination of the producers not because of the style of the game. In a JRPG the characters generally have more interaction with each other and visual novels took that to the extreme with dating sims. The interaction of a dating sim uses a skill system that requires you to raise your skills to do better against your opponent, much like the skill system of any RPG. But, if you look back at the origin of RPGs, games like Wasteland also pit you against enemies and require you to raise your skills to fight better and solve puzzles. So, they are not so different although the western tradition has developed in a completely different direction with focus on 3D visuals and less focus on developing characters.

[Hiver]

http://www.gamebanshee.com/interviews/1 ... rview.html

GB: I suspect that a vast majority of our audience understands what you're setting out to accomplish with Wasteland 2, but for those who are just stumbling upon the project, what can you tell us about your primary goals for the game? What specific feature set does the game absolutely have to have at release, in your mind, and why should fans of old-school RPGs be excited?

Brian: The hallmark of a great RPG is when the player can navigate the world the way they want to and not have it dictated by someone else's morality or confined due to graphic budgets. Much of that was lost as RPGs made their way to console or had graphical demands that were so high that the developer was making more linear narrative games. There was also quite a bit of fun in creating a party based game and having NPCs join up with you that have both hidden talents and annoying habits. We also want to get people back to using their brain to solve combat issues and not make them rely on a controller. The gamers have been making this request quite loudly for years.


....



GB: There are quite a few differences between Wasteland and Fallout, but due to the fact that the latter was a spiritual successor of the former, they oftentimes get construed as near-identical post-apocalyptic games. Do you think it's important to retain the Wasteland identity in the sequel and perhaps even try to push the game further away from the Fallout formula to ensure its uniqueness?

Brian: I think there might be varying opinions on what the formulas were for each and how they might be different. Wasteland excelled at many things like tactical combat, interesting situations that did not have clear cut correct solutions and it continued to surprise you along the way. Not only with those elements not be lost they will be expanded upon. We have the advantage of hindsight now since we can clearly see what things people reacted well to. We were flying blind while we made the first game. Fallout excelled in many of the same things but it really shined in tone and style. We need to make sure that we have an interesting art style and vibe. If there is any feeling that you have seen something a hundred times before you lose interest pretty quickly.


....



GB: While a lot of us have fond memories of the CRPGs of yesteryear, there have certainly been some modern sensibilities added to video games over the years that have improved upon the experience in measurable ways. They're certainly not all welcome additions, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on whether you think mechanics like regenerating health, autosaves, a detailed quest journal, fast travel, automapping with quest objective annotations, etc. have a place in Wasteland 2.

Brian: My tendency with this game is going to be closer to the experiences we all loved during the golden age of RPGs. Part of the reason we have the excitement we do is there is this general feeling that the games have been dumbed down for the masses. Politically correct situations, linear events, being careful no one gets lost etc...it can be kind of lame. We will put the game into beta test and if a huge majority about the lack of a feature we need to consider it but in general let's recreate the wonder with modern graphics and sound.

...........................................

For the rest read the whole interview.

[MDF_MadDogFargo]

http://www.gamebanshee.com/interviews/107335-wasteland-2-interview.html
(...)
Brian: I think there might be varying opinions on what the formulas were for each and how they might be different. Wasteland excelled at many things like tactical combat, interesting situations that did not have clear cut correct solutions and it continued to surprise you along the way. Not only with those elements not be lost they will be expanded upon. We have the advantage of hindsight now since we can clearly see what things people reacted well to. We were flying blind while we made the first game. Fallout excelled in many of the same things but it really shined in tone and style. We need to make sure that we have an interesting art style and vibe. If there is any feeling that you have seen something a hundred times before you lose interest pretty quickly.
(...)
Brian: My tendency with this game is going to be closer to the experiences we all loved during the golden age of RPGs. Part of the reason we have the excitement we do is there is this general feeling that the games have been dumbed down for the masses. Politically correct situations, linear events, being careful no one gets lost etc...it can be kind of lame. We will put the game into beta test and if a huge majority about the lack of a feature we need to consider it but in general let's recreate the wonder with modern graphics and sound.

So, absolutely no information about the design of the game or which "oldschool" style we are recreating. We are all just assuming that it will be some imaginary "western style" which doesn't actually differ much from the contemporary Japanese style in Wasteland's era. I would like the developers to say what kind of presentation they are looking for or it doesn't matter what our mechanics suggestions will be because 99% percent of that will depend on the engine they choose. If they want to make the game with a frontend like Wasteland they could update the graphics considerably, but give us a procedurally similar game and then there are all kinds of ideas for additions or tweaks that we could make to that. But without any information, our discussion can only have an effect on the game at a very general level.

[geezer]

Let me make it easy for you. This is going to be a PC only game. Probably with no console ports at all. Does that help? He's not talking about old console games like something I might have played on the Atari 2600. Think old PC RPGs and you should be okay as far as the broad strokes go.

[Ulrox]

Well from what I read of everything Brian Fargo described it sounded like a combination of fallout's style of tactical combat and story but with a kind of x-com-ish turnbased isometric party based rpg.

So something where you have 4-7 charecters that all level up and some of them act in various ways which you cant entirely control, while the ones you've created from the beginning doesn't have these charecteristics.

So I'm generally looking at wasteland 2 as a kind of blend between fallout 1/2 and icewind dale (where you create your own charecters). Bear in mind that inxile haven't set in stone what they're going to make.

Also yes Chrono trigger is awesome. I've completed it twice ;p

[MDF_MadDogFargo]

Let me make it easy for you. This is going to be a PC only game. Probably with no console ports at all. Does that help? He's not talking about old console games like something I might have played on the Atari 2600. Think old PC RPGs and you should be okay as far as the broad strokes go.

That doesn't help. Just exactly how old are we talking? You can make a good PC game with the format of for example Chrono Trigger with RPG Maker or you can make one for the Infinity engine but they will have very different programming and consequently, storytelling challenges. Sounds like Fargo is going for something a little more modern appearance than Wasteland. Whatever choice they make it will affect the composition of the game and how the story can be presented.

We could have a dual view game with map view and front view, like Wasteland. When you meet new people or have combat or other events the game can show the character's fully drawn pictures up on the screen as talking heads or as full body images. We could have sub-games that challenge you to improve relations between your characters and affects the party dynamic. The engine will define what's possible to do with the story. I would prefer one that makes it easy to take the story in new directions and change the course of events, even if that means a less modern looking interface.

[MisterStone]

If you want to know what an Old School RPG is, play Ultima V, the absolute pinnacle of pre-VGA roleplaying games. Do it on a C64 or Apple emulator. It's not as annoying as you think, no more difficult than learning enough keystrokes to play a roguelike.

And if you cannot bring yourself to play through this game, you are beyond redemption.

[geezer]

If you are having that much trouble with it just think in terms of Fallout 1 and 2. The engine is very unlikely to be more primitive than that. Or Age of Decadence. Just a basic cRPG without any handholding or Bioware/Bethesda nonsense. Just pretend that Bioware went bankrupt after Neverwinter Nights and that Bethesda went bankrupt after Daggerfall and that consoles were never invented. The Atari 2600 didn't sell enough to be profitable and everyone thought general purpose computers were a lot more value for the money. An alternate history like that. The engine will almost certainly be isometric if that helps.

[Gizmo]

Roleplaying games are all about being able to play a certain role.

This is not the defining characteristic of "Roleplaying Game".

I can agree with this... To me, a role playing game, is one designed to offer and support multiple plausible outcomes (and plot twists?) that result from the player's in-character choice of action or conversation. *Meaning that Halo does not equal an RPG even if one can pretend to be the Master Chief.

It seems a common sentiment that role playing games are about being a wizard; being an elf; a Vault Dweller, a Ranger.... I almost never see mention of being "Radagast, the wizard", or Nathan'iel the elf; Mike Tabor, from Vault 13, or Walker the (Texas) Ranger.

Since the beginning *(for me), RPGs have always been character centric. What would this particular named individual (who has lived their entire life in an institutionalized fallout bunker), decide to do in the situation presented here; are they (personally) amoral or racist enough to steal the water chip, and condemn the entire town to die of thirst.

Or... How would this unique individual (who has spent decades learning magical arts), handle two aggressive teenage thugs in an alley; are they the impulsive type? Vain? Would they go to great lengths to avoid wasting spells on them? (preferring a deceptive psychological approach)... Or simply be pragmatic and understand that they need every effect they have prepared for later that night ~and can't be afford to show off.

It's always been about the personality (for me) ~even if the game itself was sorely limited in supporting such. It's contributed disappointment in the recent past, as we are finally in a time where the hardware could support an engine that can [afford to] detect in-character behavior choices on the part of the player, yet all we get are fantasy/sci-fi setting simulators that don't often acknowledge roleplaying in the least bit as far as I can tell.

[doady]

Roleplaying games are all about being able to play a certain role. Jrpg's doesn't allow you to play any role. You can just sit back and watch the story unfold. I never said I dont like JRPG's. I've played quite a few. The new final fantasy 13-2 actually allows you to choose what to say in some circumstances so its getting closer to being a roleplaying game.

The story in the Icewind Dale games are pretty much on-rails too. It seems by your standards Icewind Dale is not an RPG?

Early JRPGs like Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy were hugely influenced by Ultima and Wizardry. I don't understand how they, or Icewind Dale, are not true RPGs.

I don't think the RPG genre is defined by the amount of choices in story and dialogue. I am not sure if it is a prerequisite for RPGs to have story and dialogue in the first place.

Lack of choices is probably the main reason I can't get into a lot of JRPGs. But to say that it defines the RPG? I'm not sure about that.

But I digress.

[Gatt9]

Roleplaying games are all about being able to play a certain role. Jrpg's doesn't allow you to play any role. You can just sit back and watch the story unfold. I never said I dont like JRPG's. I've played quite a few. The new final fantasy 13-2 actually allows you to choose what to say in some circumstances so its getting closer to being a roleplaying game.

The story in the Icewind Dale games are pretty much on-rails too. It seems by your standards Icewind Dale is not an RPG?

Early JRPGs like Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy were hugely influenced by Ultima and Wizardry. I don't understand how they, or Icewind Dale, are not true RPGs.

I don't think the RPG genre is defined by the amount of choices in story and dialogue. I am not sure if it is a prerequisite for RPGs to have story and dialogue in the first place.

Lack of choices is probably the main reason I can't get into a lot of JRPGs. But to say that it defines the RPG? I'm not sure about that.

But I digress.

There's a number of different styles of RPG's, but two are pretty dominant.

RPG that is more focused on dialogue and narrative direction. (BG2, KotOR, DAO, Ultima, Fallout 1 & 2, Planescape)
RPG that is more focused on PnP style combat and loot. (JRPG's, 80's era RPGs, Gold-box RPG's, Eye of the Beholder, Icewind Dale, Diablo, Nethack)

All of the above can be seemlessly translated back and forth between PnP and CRPG, this is in contrast to Mass Effect or The Elder Scrolls (Oblivion onward), Fallout 3, where you cannot translate the games back to PnP, due to a high level of player-based skill for combat and/or an abstract protagonist with no qualities of his own, just an Avatar for your qualities.

But the defining characteristic is always, as Gizmo states, am I assuming the Role of my character? It doesn't have to be a particularly complicated role, it can be a pre-defined role (Similiar to the Dragonlance modules of TSR), it just has to be seperate from yourself.

So is a JRPG a RPG? Absolutely. It is a very basic RPG, but an RPG none-the-less.

As far as the main topic goes, I'd venture we are talking somewhere between 80's era and Fallout era. Judging from Brian's comments, I suspect we're going in the direction of Might and Magic style open world, with Fallout style dialogue trees and combat.

[Drool]

If you want to know what an Old School RPG is, play Ultima V, the absolute pinnacle of pre-VGA roleplaying games. [...] And if you cannot bring yourself to play through this game, you are beyond redemption.

Feh. The Ultima games were always too pretentious for me.