Females as Characters

[Color Blotch]

but I still wonder how fucking difficult it could be to get both strength and feminity into one character without resorting to cheap clichés.

Well, considering how the whole concept of "femininity" is riddled with cheap clichés, it's probably impossible I'm afraid.

[Hiver]

No its not.

[Zeful]

but I still wonder how fucking difficult it could be to get both strength and masculinity into one character without resorting to cheap clichés.

A quick change to prove a point: writing good characters is hard. Be they male or female. Lot's of male characters in games are terribly written cliches with little or no emotional depth. Writing a good character involves addressing their place in society, the expectations of society on them because of their place in society, their gender and their goals in life, and how they react to it all.

[TΛPETRVE]

[A quick change to prove a point: writing good characters is hard. Be they male or female. Lot's of male characters in games are terribly written cliches with little or no emotional depth. Writing a good character involves addressing their place in society, the expectations of society on them because of their place in society, their gender and their goals in life, and how they react to it all.

True. But sometimes, a character is written fairly well, and then undermined by horribly factitious demeanour and attire, or put into scenes, where all the good writing is worthless as the situation doesn't demand it.

[malthaussen]

Seen the outrage over Anita Sarkeesian's Kickstart proposal on this subject?

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/566 ... s?ref=live

The good news is, she's pulled in 25 times what she wanted for the project. The bad news is, she bloody earned it by having to put up with the responses.

-- Mal

[Oktobermensch]

Seen the outrage over Anita Sarkeesian's Kickstart proposal on this subject?

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/566 ... s?ref=live

The good news is, she's pulled in 25 times what she wanted for the project. The bad news is, she bloody earned it by having to put up with the responses.

-- Mal

I'm sorry to say that, but the less we talk about it, the better. This is a pretty disgusting cash grab for something that amounts to silly rants on youtube that anyone with half a brain could do. She has no real arguments to support whatever point she is making and has little to no relevance to this particular project.

Back on topic:
I think we might be forgetting that women are human beings, not an endagered species to be danced around. Why is there so much fuss over the issue? Females are the same as males character-wise, excpet they tend to rely on things like emotions more and tend to be more social ( not accounting for all individual personality quirks that will vary from person to person) .There are also physical differences too so throw that in and bam, your female character is ready.
If you feel thatI generalised in some way then feel free to have a go at me, but I will be damned if I let this subject be pushed to the absurd levels as it has been recently.

Writing is hard and good character writing isn't something to be found by the wayside, but I don't believe that women have to be discussed and treated in a manner as if you were trying to insert aliens into the game.

[Hiver]

I'm sorry to say that, but the less we talk about it, the better.

Oh really? How does this next paragraph follow that logically?

This is a pretty disgusting cash grab for something that amounts to silly rants on youtube that anyone with half a brain could do. She has no real arguments to support whatever point she is making and has little to no relevance to this particular project.

How.. how exactly do you do that?
First state that it is your mighty opinion this should not be talked about AT ALL... like youre some kind of sheriff.
And then jump into your own mouth while denigrating the person in question by spluttering pure bullshit strawmans and lies in the next sentence.

And i guess... we shouldnt talk about that, huh?

Back on topic:
I think we might be forgetting that women are human beings, not an endagered species to be danced around. Why is there so much fuss over the issue? Females are the same as males character-wise, excpet they tend to rely on things like emotions

Complete bullshit. We all rely on our emotions. Add to that that generalizations are never ever correct nor based on actual facts. Women just consider a bit different emotions more important then males do, over the whole emotional range. Which isnt surprising at all seeing the genetic, biological and usual social role differences.

more and tend to be more social ( not accounting for all individual personality quirks that will vary from person to person)

Exactly how do you make a a generalizing statement like that and then proceeded to debase and defeat it yourself?

There are also physical differences too so throw that in and bam, your female character is ready.

No thanks.

If you feel that generalized in some way then feel free to have a go at me, but I will be damned if I let this subject be pushed to the absurd levels as it has been recently.

And...exactly how will you stop that?
With ridiculous, uninformed, uneducated, self defeating opinions like these?

Writing is hard and good character writing isn't something to be found by the wayside, but I don't believe that women have to be discussed and treated in a manner as if you were trying to insert aliens into the game.

You just did that.

[Oktobermensch]

Hey, just throwing my 2 cents in here. But you haven't made any valid comments, except calling every second line of my post "self-defeating", without actually providing any valid points of your own.

Is it really that bad to be aware of the pitfalls and difficulties that beset the discussion as it is? Is that why you haven't made any insights of your own? I think that such baseless statements as yours are the problem, since you try to shut down all discussion.

[KIrving]

I think we might be forgetting that women are human beings, not an endagered species to be danced around. Why is there so much fuss over the issue? Females are the same as males character-wise, excpet they tend to rely on things like emotions more and tend to be more social ( not accounting for all individual personality quirks that will vary from person to person) .There are also physical differences too so throw that in and bam, your female character is ready.
If you feel thatI generalised in some way then feel free to have a go at me, but I will be damned if I let this subject be pushed to the absurd levels as it has been recently.

Writing is hard and good character writing isn't something to be found by the wayside, but I don't believe that women have to be discussed and treated in a manner as if you were trying to insert aliens into the game.

Clearly, you don't understand the chequered history of female characters in video games. Many are badly written, simplified, sexualised, objectified, victimised, vamped up, slut shamed or fridged. Often they are not written as people but as 'other' with stereotypical traits and tropes inserted into their personalities and stories.
Something I particularly hate is when even strong female characters are written in such a way that they get an exaggerated opportunity to reveal their emotional or vulnerable side and get helped out/comforted and or rescued by a 'white knight' male character.

I think the point of this thread is to ask that female characters be written like fully realised people.

[Hiver]

Hey, just throwing my 2 cents in here. But you haven't made any valid comments, except calling every second line of my post "self-defeating", without actually providing any valid points of your own.

Is it really that bad to be aware of the pitfalls and difficulties that beset the discussion as it is? Is that why you haven't made any insights of your own? I think that such baseless statements as yours are the problem, since you try to shut down all discussion.

No youre not "just" throwing your two cents in there and it is your post that was completely unsubstantiated, without any sort of insights, valid points and full of baseless statements, revealing you as a closet misogynist (or maybe someone just not aware how limited and false view he has), who actually does not know anything about women except the most generalized crap - and it was you telling people you dont want anyone talking about it!

Plus you seem not to be able to understand my points at all. Or pretend so. They are there. Read them again.
-doubt it will help though-

[Oktobermensch]

Wow, tone it down with the hate speech there. I'm just saying my stuff while you call me names and still do not provide any valid rebuttal to my points.
Forgive me for assuming that there is civility to be had in this discussion. Apparently you know more than me, even though its hard to see it through the insults you throw at me.

But seriously, am I wrong to assume that women should be written like the human beings they are and not the special snowflakes that they are not? Isn't that the common problem that everyone has with games these days?

[Hiver]

If you dont like the "hate speech" you should think about removing it from your inventory.
If you want civility then show it to others, especially those who you accuse so blatantly of not having half a brain, no real arguments and doing it all as a cash grab, by just inventing garbage and lies without giving any evidence for it at all - which you cannot do at all, of course. (btw - your opinion is not evidence, Einstein - yes, thats the dude that sticks his tongue at people)

And then splurging garbage about how women are emotional and men are not and other stupid shit i already dissected.

btw, im just repeating what i already said in the first reply - which you were not able to comprehend.
and now your crying about getting "hate speech"?

Do you... can you even realize how ridiculous that makes you?

But seriously, am I wrong to assume that women should be written like the human beings they are and not the special snowflakes that they are not?

You did not suggest any such thing because your perception and understanding of women is misogynist or utterly limited due to other factors such as lack of education, experience or intelligence.

Nobody in this whole thread suggested treating women as "special snowflakes" at all. Thats a blatant and quite stupid strawman.

I would say that the problem is people like you who are not even aware of what they are saying or thinking.
Which can be seen in that post of yours that i took apart and given you clear reasons why every single of those sentences is wrong - and you just dont get it.

[Oktobermensch]

Getting back on topic, it seems that we have a rather overused concept of what should constitute a good female character. I don't think that by simply portaying them as "hardasses" just to put them in contrast to the usual is a good solution.

Just going back to my idea of trying to write human characters first and foremost, we should not be afraid of including flaws or personality quirks into characters, regardless of whether you are talking about a female trooper or simply another farmer in the wasteland. In the end, its the character quirks and personality differences that make characters interesting. Their interactions, be it arguments or friendships is what makes them look alive, regardless of gender.

So maybe instead of trying to tackle one extreme approach with other, we should consider trying to create characters that populate the world, that then happen to be male or female, and with that adding to whatever character has been created.

[Hiver]

That...i can certainly agree with, as most of the posters in this thread will, no doubt, since most of us are for exactly that direction, from the get go.
- cool point for you for stepping up.

[Aarek]

Why does it matter exactly what the females are as characters? Why can't they include a mixture of all? Because let's face it, we're all human beings here and there isn't a "proper" way to portray anyone male or female because we are all different.

There are badass tough as nails females and of course there are the overused (mainly in games or media) the weak damsel in distress females. That's not saying there aren't any males like that neither, I literally turn into a wimp the moment a spider enters my house because I have arachnophobia.

They've been saying they want to create characters and companions that feel alive and real, 3-dimentional etc so I don't see why we have to talk about adding and making sure they're not like how all the females in games are nowadays when females as well as males exist like that in real life as well as many other different people. If they want to make Wasteland 2 better, they need to not think like this and how specifically females should be portrayed, but adding many different characters with deep interesting varied personalities that make them feel more alive as well as the game world feeling more real and alive.

[Hiver]

The POINT and the REASON of it is that media and gaming have too often gone for the lowest common denominator and cheap, shallow representation of females in games.

There are a few notable exceptions (Alyx Vance being one that immediately pops into my mind) but they are a large minority.
Therefore there is over saturation with such cheap characters and repeating them again is not the answer.

Be aware that we are talking about important NPCs in the game (and those who can become your allies), most of all, not just unimportant npc extras.
And you seem to be mistaking the concept of better designed Female characters as some sort of opposite shallow, two dimensional approach.... which is simply your misunderstanding and consequence of laziness to read the thread.

As for examples of sci-fi and fantasy literature that does its female characters right, without making them an opposite cardboard cutter two dimensional badasses (which no one argued for here at all btw),i suggest reading either the "Culture" series by Ian. M. Banks or "Malazan" books series.

[Aarek]

Then my main point still stands, I don't think we should care too much and pay too much special treatment for how females should be portrayed. Give Mr. Fargo and everyone else working on Wasteland 2 more credit, they're obviously not going to do that to the females because if you check his twitter feed often, he shares pretty much the same view points of you and everyone else emotional attached to this thread.

I just don't think we should pay much attention to how the "media" portrays everything, you're obviously a fool if you believe EVERYTHING that is said on the media. Now please note I wasn't calling you a fool, just anyone who believes in that the media is 100% accurate and fact.

I don't want all of the female characters to be 100% perfect and none of those stereotypes that yes do get portrayed in games but are actually realistic if you get what I mean. Not ALL women are like that but there are some, the exact same thing for males, I want weak characters male and female and strong characters male and female with great diversity that can help you bond with these characters enough to really like them for who they are. And I don't necessarily mean by like as in a romantic fancy, but as in a "hey, I really like this guy because he's a battle hardened veteran who puts himself on the line to save his friends; I could see me being great friends with him because that's the kind of guy I usually try to be.

Or I really like this girl because she's sarcastic and can be funny at times or flat out really annoying but her superior knowledge in technology makes up for it so she can get you out of really tricky situations when the need arises. Do you kind of see where I'm coming from?

And thank you for the recommendations of books, I've actually been thinking about what book I should read next so I might take you up on those books, it's been a while since I read a sci-fi one!

[Hiver]

If you want such characters in the game and dont want two dimensional shallow overblown monstrosities then indeed you and all of us and devs should pay attention to it all.

Not doing so is tantamount to sticking ones head in the sand.

Good things need focus and hard work to become reality.
I repeat... nobody in this whole thread argued we should just have the two dimensional opposite of "weak damsel in distress" or other such types of shallow and stupid design of characters.

As for the books i suggested, one of the many things i like them for is how they portray female characters.
Without putting any emphasis on their sexuality or other such cheap crap.

Most of the time you dont even know its a female (especially in Malazan books where a lot of them are soldiers and so covered in armor, helmets and other gear) until someone mentions it pages and pages later. Though thats not how all of them are portrayed.
And they are all deep and partially flawed, as far from perfection as any real person, with their own qualities and limitations or faults.
Last few books of the Culture series were not that good as first several ones so i suggest you start from the beginning, even if the stories are not directly related.

[ffordesoon]

Did anybody play Enslaved? It's not a great game, but the narrative side of it is terrific.

The main female character in that game, Trip, was a deeply flawed person on a number of levels, and the setup for the game seemed to promise a stereotypical "weak female needs big strong male protector" narrative. But Trip is one of my very favorite female characters in all of gaming, because the writers took pains to make her character feel three-dimensional. I can't elucidate at the moment, but is there someone else here that's played the game who wouldn't mind doing that?

Thanks.

[Aarek]

I agree with you completely and I thoroughly enjoyed Enslaved.

And although yes she was weak, but that's because she's only human whereas monkey can be seen of a type of super-human extremely agile and tough person because he's survived on his own for pretty much most of his life and only ever made contact with other people when he went to trade in some settlements as he recalls in the game.

Although Trip was weak psychically, she made up for it mentally since she was a tech genius and not to mention very strong willed. Not going to go into detail to avoid spoilers for people who have yet to experience such a good game and story, but she did go through a lot of emotional troubles and although she did have her worried moments because of them, thanks to her friendship with Monkey, she was able to move past them and become stronger.

The character development in that game was fantastic and you really felt the bond between Monkey and Trip, they both filled the gap what they both lacked. Monkey being the psychically strong simple person and Trip being the intellectually strong person yet psychically weak made them quite the team. And I believe the reason for their differences is because Monkey had to fend and look out for himself whereas Trip lived in a community that worked together and relied mostly on robots and other gadgets to do the work for them.

It's stuff like that and the character development like that, that makes the story and mood of games an even better and understandable and enjoyable experience.

If Wasteland 2 can replicate even a small bit of that character development and diversity with all of the characters you get to meet and have come with you, words can't really describe how happy I would be!