Mood: Fallout vs Wasteland

[geezer]

No narrative? Well if you're not gonna have a story you should at least have some tasteful rape. Anything to break up the boredom of a virtual desert. I get bored with games that don't have the backbone structure of a story. You're just supposed to wander around and kill people? I could understand if it were possible to make a virtual world of the kind that the old (pre-Zenimax) Bethesda originally wanted to make with Arena.

It could be kind of like the holodeck on Star Trek (TNG) where the world is so complete and realistic you can make your own story just by interacting with it. Although to be fair the way it was mostly used in the TV show was as a story where you played one of the characters. But I do get that idea. The NPCs could have such good AI that you could have real conversations with them that were not canned and the animals and monsters themselves could have a form of independent AI and could be part of an organic virtual ecosystem which is a realistic simulation.

But just wandering around in a fallout-like environment looking for enemies to fight for no reason at all? It may be faithful to the original, but that doesn't sound like a very interesting game to me. So I'd want to be able to do all kinds of crazy sick stuff just for the lulz. Until I got bored of it and quit the game.

Actually it's kind of strange because cRPGs really are a kind of combat sim. But as an adult just fighting one combat encounter after another without structure gets old very fast. As a kid I could probably have lasted quite a while. Although even Castle Wolfenstein had some kind of goal: to escape the fortress. I'm not sure I understand the nature of the medium well enough to know why having a story or goal is so critical to make the fighting worthwhile, but that's how it is for me.

[Akira28]

Wasteland had a plot, not exactly a narrative. You had to find the plot, and I guess you made up your own narrative, since they didn't really hand you one. You eventually made it the Vegas and learned about the robot menace which would probably put you on the trail of Max, in search of Darwin and Cochise, you would eventually be powerful enough to take on the citadel. You tried before and didn't make it very far beyond the flags, but you've got Rad Suits and RPGs and AK-97s this time. You found your way, and the plot, by trial and error, educated guessing and good old exploration, and then they eventually gave you a narrative for the last 3rd of the game.

So it should be free form again, missions leading to missions leading to missions and you eventually figure out what the hell is going on locally, which may or may not connect to the larger overhead plot. But in the mean time you're rescuing kidnapped mayors, killing gangs of biker thugs, doing good, or raising hell, doing your job as a Desert Ranger however you see fit.

[Borghal]

Well, I'd be okay without a central narrative, but there would have to be enough stuff going on on the side to compensate. You know, every place has its own personality, own story, characters, quests, whatever.

Nobody wants to wander a wasteland with repeating quests...

[flikera]

Fallout is the spiritual sequel of Wasteland. I believe the mood should be somewhere in between the two (although I love the dark and gray Fallout mood more).

[homeslice82]

Well, I'd be okay without a central narrative, but there would have to be enough stuff going on on the side to compensate. You know, every place has its own personality, own story, characters, quests, whatever.

Nobody wants to wander a wasteland with repeating quests...

If inXile sticks to the original, then that shouldn't be a problem. Wasteland fit every single one of the criteria you mentioned.

[CanadianWolvie]

I also feel that the Wasteland franchise needs to be distinct from the Fallout franchise. I always felt that Wasteland had an 80's vibe to it, with the colors and technology and all of that. The military aspects also felt inspired by 80's action movies, like Mad Max, Terminator, and Commando and so on. The Fallout games have the 50's retro feel, of course, along with the idealized, yet cynical view of American life. I love both of these settings, but please keep them separate!

I was entertained by those movies and I wonder ... what do people think of something like The Expendables 1 & 2? Just curious because that made me think of the 80s (and early 90s) action movies but its been made with all the various bits and pieces 2 decades of cinema advances have come up with. It is also team based. Even includes some romance and bro-mance.

I hope others recognize the 80s "vibe" but updated can definitely set this apart as something very entertaining and positively marketable. God, the publishers who turned down the creative vision of Wasteland were idiots.

[Namfoodle]

I also feel that the Wasteland franchise needs to be distinct from the Fallout franchise. I always felt that Wasteland had an 80's vibe to it, with the colors and technology and all of that. The military aspects also felt inspired by 80's action movies, like Mad Max, Terminator, and Commando and so on. The Fallout games have the 50's retro feel, of course, along with the idealized, yet cynical view of American life. I love both of these settings, but please keep them separate!

Fallouts had a lot taken from Mad Max, I'd also like to see something a bit different. Wasteland reminds me more of films like Escape From New York, 2019: After the Fall of New York, Blood of the Heroes (my avatar) and Terminator like you mentioned, perhaps also something like Robocop. So not as cynical as Fallout, a bit more more satirical and crazy.

[ButchinMelancholy]

I personally didn't have the chance to play Wasteland, but Fallout definitely stands as my all time greatest fascination in gaming experience (except some other unique works). I barely know other games that gave me some similar feelings and have this hold on me, leaving that imprint on my mind.
Today, I don't know anymore how to express it as my awakening made me realize some realities and the gap between my true and deep visions and the way those words can sound to anyone else, but what is important in those games for me was the true constructive impact it had on my imagination, this power to generate singular feelings, desires, and the real depth of that immersion. I was living something, because it was not about showing off some thing or another, trying to demonstrate anything or appealing to that "public" considered as an object. It was human, in the good meaning of the term, deeply creative and sensitive.
That's what annihilates me in the new Fallout series, beyond the ridiculous clumsinesses Bethesda did when trying to "respect" Fallout's universe, which led to some completely rickety and inconsistent design choices, but it just conveys nothing deep and significative, and I feel like my mind is anesthetized by this sterility...
And I don't care about formal things, that game being mature doesn't mean you should just be able to have sex and kill or swear the way you want, because this doesn't make sense by itself at all, like being deep is not using some unusual words or images because what matters is the true meaning of things. So I hear what some said here, and I agree with those "realistic" experiences being essential for what they can convey.
In fact, what I am trying to say, is that everything is just about essence, before any matter, because you can't touch nore really explain what transcends your soul, what inspires your mind, but you know and understand what it is deep inside, and this is what you need.

So if that game could just be spiritually truthful to the Fallout experience, and somehow feel like a brother to it, with its own settings and personality but leaving us that same flavor, it would be a bliss. And I like dark, serious, cynical (you can call it dark humor sometimes) things.
On another note, I count on Mark Morgan to deliver some great music for the game, because it is always of a special importance for me, that's one of the main source of identity and emotion in a game and Fallout ones were absolutely unforgettable (the beautiful nostalgia of Modoc, that mesmeric atmosphere on Broken Hills and other locations from Fallout 2, this brutal and tribal ambience from The Den or the terrific New Reno one, and on and on -I mostly played that game, yeah -). That will be a tough task to offer something of this level...

Cheers.

[Drool]

I played the hell out of Wasteland, first on my C64 and then later on PC. Even after a decade of not looking at it, I still remembered things like "motekim gets you out; kaput kills you". Since the announcement of the Kickstarter campaign, I dusted off my copy and started playing again, everything fresh in my mind. On my third or fourth playthrough (it's not an especially long game, especially if you have it memorized and use super-loot bags), I decided to do it "straight", only carrying over money. It also lead to me sitting down and actually reading the appropriate paragraphs when prompted for probably the first time in 15 years. It was in those paragraphs that the soul of Wasteland really comes out. The detail paid to seemingly small things, especially on the staff files you find in the Sleeper Base. That sort of thing really doesn't come across in the Fallout games.

Fallout is 50's retro-futurist. That's why there's plasma weapons but reel-to-reel computers. Nuclear powered cars but coffee is only made with a percolator. Environmentally-sealed power armor but rotary phones. It has its feet firmly planted in the world of EE "Doc" Smith and Heinlein; in the world of Astounding Stories, Thrilling Wonder Stories, and Planet Stories. While the world is desolated by nuclear war, there's still an undercurrent of hope.

Wasteland planted itself in the era it was made. A world of MAD. A world where it wasn't "those darn Reds" but "those evil Soviets". It wasn't a world that branched off from a real one during the 80's -- like Fallout branched in the 50's -- it was a dark look forward. For those of you who haven't played, here's a couple sections from the instruction book that should give you an idea of how the feel of the two games was strikingly different:

Tensions grew with the coming of 1998. The United States' Citadel Starstation was slated to be fully operational by March, Soviet charges that the space station was merely a military launching platform alarmed a number of nonaligned nations. The right wing governments in the South and Central Americas, many of them set up by the U.S. during the Drug Wars (1987-1993), pledged their support to the U.S. [...]

Two weeks before Citadel was due for full operation, the station transmitted a distress signal. Immediately after the message was sent, most of the satellites orbiting the planet were swept clean from the sky, leaving the great powers blind. In military panic, each sent 90 percent of their nuclear arsenals skyward. [...]

Shortly after the nuclear attack began, the Engineers, seeking shelter, took over the federal prison and expelled the prisoners into the desolate desert to complete their sentences. As the weeks passed, they invited the nearby survivalist communities to join them and to help them build a new society.

In Fallout, Vault people weren't trusted because they just aren't well known and are often completely ignorant of social norms. In Wasteland, the Rangers weren't trusted because they were elitist jerks. In many ways, Wasteland was a much bleaker game than Fallout. Yes, it certainly had its humor, and often had its tongue firmly planted in cheek, but it wasn't intentionally pulpy like Fallout was. More Escape From New York than Six String Samurai.

I really hope that Wasteland 2 keeps the feel of the original game. Keeps the theme. And yes, keeps the era intact. It needn't take place immediately after the destruction of Cochise (although that would be interesting), it needn't even take place within the lifetimes of many of the original characters, but it needs to still be that world. One of the bleakest things about Wasteland was that the robot menace wasn't the only problem, and Cochise wasn't the only source of danger.

The Rangers never really deal with Darwin, for instance. You could close the spawning pits, but there's nothing stopping someone from picking up where Finster left off. Cochise might be gone, but who knows what someone might be able to dig out from Sleeper One? And just where did Max come from? All Brygo knows is that he came from "the east". What's out there? There's certainly no guarantee that whatever spawned Max was fully benevolent.

[PiPboy]

I personally think the Roots are important.
But Dark Humor is something that really should be added. That was one feature I loved in fallout that deserves to be emulated.

-Free Vic, then sell him back to slavers
-Shotgun Wedding
-Can't be a vault citizen cause of your "6th" toe
-Blowing up a town of ghouls cause they are ikky.
-You find your father drunk and dead
-Get Screwed by a Supermutant because you "lost an arm wrestling match"
-Be a Fluffer in New Reno cause your "down on your luck"

I think dark humor brings alot of light to a world that is so down in the dumps.

[ButchinMelancholy]

Wasteland had a plot, not exactly a narrative. You had to find the plot, and I guess you made up your own narrative, since they didn't really hand you one. You eventually made it the Vegas and learned about the robot menace which would probably put you on the trail of Max, in search of Darwin and Cochise, you would eventually be powerful enough to take on the citadel. You tried before and didn't make it very far beyond the flags, but you've got Rad Suits and RPGs and AK-97s this time. You found your way, and the plot, by trial and error, educated guessing and good old exploration, and then they eventually gave you a narrative for the last 3rd of the game.

So it should be free form again, missions leading to missions leading to missions and you eventually figure out what the hell is going on locally, which may or may not connect to the larger overhead plot. But in the mean time you're rescuing kidnapped mayors, killing gangs of biker thugs, doing good, or raising hell, doing your job as a Desert Ranger however you see fit.

I am in complete accord with this view.

Overall on this topic, like another one said I think, I don't care where it comes from, 'cause beyond the Wasteland/Fallout influences issue, what matters is not how it looks like, but how it feels.

[MDF_MadDogFargo]

Some of the most memorable scenes from Wasteland were the really strange, pulpy, absurd and yet dark ones. Giant carrots and psychotic gardeners with rabbit armies. Hobo oracles. The blood staff murder mystery. The Temple of Blood in general. Hobo Dogs. The over-the-top combat lines. I'd hate to see that stuff go in the name of "gritty realism". Fallout's black humor, while great, wasn't really similar at all. No game has recaptured the almost comic book-esque magic of Wasteland.

Yes, I agree! In my mind Wasteland was a silly, comic-book pulpy world, but with violence and sex and killer robots! That is the atmosphere of that game and that is what makes it endearing. Fallout has its good points there is no reason to copy Fallout. Wasteland was and still is a good game, the art could be improved, but the atmosphere should stay the same.

[MDF_MadDogFargo]

Wasteland had a plot, not exactly a narrative. You had to find the plot, and I guess you made up your own narrative, since they didn't really hand you one. You eventually made it the Vegas and learned about the robot menace which would probably put you on the trail of Max, in search of Darwin and Cochise, you would eventually be powerful enough to take on the citadel. You tried before and didn't make it very far beyond the flags, but you've got Rad Suits and RPGs and AK-97s this time. You found your way, and the plot, by trial and error, educated guessing and good old exploration, and then they eventually gave you a narrative for the last 3rd of the game.

Yes! That basic open structure is one of the most important things about the game. i would add in my vision of WL2 the game is non-linear like that for the most part and instead of one final 3rd act narrative you might come about by one path or another many different final act narratives that equally end the game, depending on your characters and their skills and what you've done. There can also be semi-random encounters with persistent characters who change the story line. Considering how small the original Wasteland was, you could produce a game with twice as many characters and plot lines with very much less effort if we are concerned more about the role-playing we can do than the graphics.

[Tetraptous]

I think the important thing is to keep the same general setting as Wasteland, sort of the 80s take on nuclear apocalypse, and to really go whole hog on Wasteland's really defining characteristic, which was that you were a part of a large, living and persistent world, and while not the only person in it, your actions had consequences on its development. But I don't think inXile should hold back progress and stick to some of the design choices made 25 years ago just to be distinct from newer games, including Fallout. Things like the color scheme and the top-down viewpoint were design decisions constrained by technical limitations, and really don't need to be retained in order to keep what made Wasteland special. The game mechanics can and should be tweaked to take advantage of the years of experience gained by Fargo and his team, and the progression of games in general. Don't get me wrong--combat and the like should still be thoughtful and strategic, but it doesn't need to be a direct rehash of the original. My real worry is that the developers will kowtow too much to their fans, and be afraid to innovate in fear of disappointing the crowd which just wants the first Wasteland updated to run on a modern machine. I'm content that without interference from a traditional publisher and outside market pressures, the developers can be trusted to make a great game which captures the spirit of the original in a more modern dressing, and I hope they aren't afraid to stick to their guns and make unpopular decisions for the betterment of the final product.

[krellen]

I hope they aren't afraid to stick to their guns and make unpopular decisions for the betterment of the final product.

Me too.

And I hope one of those decisions is that Wasteland 2 really should be a new Wasteland story with the same Wasteland gameplay.

[Layle Baker]

I hope they aren't afraid to stick to their guns and make unpopular decisions for the betterment of the final product.

Me too.

And I hope one of those decisions is that Wasteland 2 really should be a new Wasteland story with the same Wasteland gameplay.

Well I hope the engine and game mechanics are up-to-date and somewhat modern. I don't mind have the MSPE ruleset in the game, I think it worked decently for what it was. As echoed very very VERY early on in this thread (i.e. Brother None), I fear that too much Fallout could leak into this game. While I love F1 and 2, I want a *Wasteland* 2, not a successor to Fallout 1 and 2.

[Ausir]

And I hope one of those decisions is that Wasteland 2 really should be a new Wasteland story with the same Wasteland gameplay.

While I don't think Wasteland 2 should simply be a Fallout game under a Wasteland name, nor an FPS, you can't really expect it to have exactly the same gameplay as a 1988 game either.

[krellen]

you can't really expect it to have exactly the same gameplay as a 1988 game either.

Why not? I don't have to worry about the game appealing to "modern sensibilities" - that's the point of having it be funded this way instead of the traditional way - and it's not like the gameplay was broken; it was certainly enjoyable enough to get Wasteland a Game of the Year award.

[Ausir]

While no one here wants it to play like Fallout 3, almost no one wants it to play exactly like a 1988 8-bit game either. A lot of the gameplay was a result of technical limitations at that time. I'm afraid that if you want the game to replicate the original exactly, you'll be disappointed. Anyway, Fargo said already that it will be something of a mix between the original Wasteland and Fallout.

[Brother None]

I really don't understand the "retro for retro's sake" argument. This isn't a small indie retro project, it's a full-fledged RPG. There's no real reason for it to ignore all the progress made in the 25 years between, it just has to remember its core identity as a hardcore, pen-and-paper-inspired RPG and work from there.