AO, M or Teen?

[homeslice82]

The game game can, and should, be the exact way the developers want it. However, you don't have to show someone being graphically tortured, to know they are being graphically tortured. To show the actual act of someone being tortured, or having sex, in the game, only serves to show it. If, for example, in game, it's stated: Billy was horrifyingly raped, and tortured. Instead of showing those actions just for the sake of showing those actions, the game will avoid the controversy, and retain the artistic point.

The developers can push the limit of M rating, that is fine, but to crossover into AO territory requires excessive violence and sex, which the game probably won't have at that level anyway.

I'd just like to add that even depiction of that kind of stuff won't get WL2 an AO rating. Look at the rape scene in The Virgin Spring--you think something like that would net us AO? Not by a long shot. AO, to a certain extent, has a kind of prerequisite over-the-top base vulgarity. inXile, in effect, would have to show more than necessary, in an artless way to boot, to get that rating. They would literally have to violate the artistic integrity that these white knights are supposedly attempting to protect.

Not that it's particularly relevant anyway, since I have yet to see compelling arguments that inXile should include such extreme subject matter in the first place. It gets away from WL1's more light-hearted core.

[Drool]

I think the issue is the number of people saying, "I want this to be at least M rated." That prepositional phrase is the problem; it implies that you actually want an AO game, but will settle for M. Which is insane. Like Homeslice has said numerous times, the only practical way to get an AO rating is for graphic sex. If you honestly want graphic sex, there's plenty of websites for that. Or go find an attractive person and experience it glorious 3D.

The amount of carnage required for AO is insane. Manhunt 2 was completely over the top, and part of that AO probably had to do with the stalking aspect as well. I can't imagine that WL2 is going to have that kind of blood and gore, especially in an isometric game.

The original had plenty of death, adult situations, prostitution (it was apparently quite cold in Fat Freddy's), and child killin', and its tongue-in-cheek rating was PG-13, which would probably put it on the boarder between Teen and Mature.

[LordLJ]

INTERNET DISAGREEMENTS ARE VERY IMPORTANT

But no, you are both right if the graphics won't allow for these types of things to show. We don't have anything to really worry about then, hahaha.

Now, about invincible kids.....

[BMF]

INTERNET DISAGREEMENTS ARE VERY IMPORTANT
Now, about invincible kids.....

There is no such thing. If a kid gets shot in the face he dies like everyone else...

[Mandemon]

INTERNET DISAGREEMENTS ARE VERY IMPORTANT
Now, about invincible kids.....

There is no such thing. If a kid gets shot in the face he dies like everyone else...

No he doesn't. People die when they are killed.

Children are not people.

They are monsters.

[Azriel]

Slightly off topic, Speaking of kids, couldn't you recruit knife carrying kids in the first game?

[krellen]

Slightly off topic, Speaking of kids, couldn't you recruit knife carrying kids in the first game?

Jackie had a knife. I don't think she was plural, though.

[jymm]

I can see everyone getting behind the idea that we are funding Brian & inXile to make the game they want, and thus they shouldn't tailor it to the ratings boards. I get that. But in backing this game I also want to make the case that the industry _should_ make more games like this. It should have been greenlit by some publisher so we didn't have to fund it (though I'm happy to oblige, given the circumstances.) In order for the game to be taken seriously, to have any commercial value whatsoever, and to therefore have any impact on the broader industry and future games, it must bear an M rating.

So I have to say I support reining it in where necessary to please the prudes at the ESRB. That may mean making it the full monty and then scaling back to get it passed, but if so then I still support that. I don't like it, but I bow to that reality. To throw away everything this game will stand for at release just to make a "principled" stand on an AO rating would be somewhat childish, IMO.

Just my 2 cents.

[Azriel]

I can see everyone getting behind the idea that we are funding Brian & inXile to make the game they want, and thus they shouldn't tailor it to the ratings boards. I get that. But in backing this game I also want to make the case that the industry _should_ make more games like this. It should have been greenlit by some publisher so we didn't have to fund it (though I'm happy to oblige, given the circumstances.) In order for the game to be taken seriously, to have any commercial value whatsoever, and to therefore have any impact on the broader industry and future games, it must bear an M rating.

So I have to say I support reining it in where necessary to please the prudes at the ESRB. That may mean making it the full monty and then scaling back to get it passed, but if so then I still support that. I don't like it, but I bow to that reality. To throw away everything this game will stand for at release just to make a "principled" stand on an AO rating would be somewhat childish, IMO.

Just my 2 cents.

Hell no, you saw what brian said about how companies want to create games. The current game companies want to create formulatic games created for the greatest mass appeal, they will not create anything that is truly old school games. Even if brian did what you said, the only games that would come out is turds like DA2. sanatized not to offend anyone, dumbed down for the stupid masses, no choices, voiced protag that only has good/evil choices...etc. So no, no more limiting the game or being ruled by nanny esrb thank you very much. I think some of you are missing the whole point of the game being FAN FUNDED. Its so we don't have to sanitize, dumb down, or anything else that corporations do. Brian did a video or interview (cant remember which), where he said he was making this for the fans and NOT for the mass market. Which is WHAT WE WANT. Don't worry though, I have a feeling the game will sell very well, companies will try to emulate it, but it will be a disneyed version of rpg's like DA2.

Again, this is being made for the old school pre-esrb players which means create a game that they want to make with NO LIMITS on their creative freedom.

[abdiel420]

I can see everyone getting behind the idea that we are funding Brian & inXile to make the game they want, and thus they shouldn't tailor it to the ratings boards. I get that. But in backing this game I also want to make the case that the industry _should_ make more games like this. It should have been greenlit by some publisher so we didn't have to fund it (though I'm happy to oblige, given the circumstances.) In order for the game to be taken seriously, to have any commercial value whatsoever, and to therefore have any impact on the broader industry and future games, it must bear an M rating.

So I have to say I support reining it in where necessary to please the prudes at the ESRB. That may mean making it the full monty and then scaling back to get it passed, but if so then I still support that. I don't like it, but I bow to that reality. To throw away everything this game will stand for at release just to make a "principled" stand on an AO rating would be somewhat childish, IMO.

Just my 2 cents.

Hell no, you saw what brian said about how companies want to create games. The current game companies want to create formulatic games created for the greatest mass appeal, they will not create anything that is truly old school games. Even if brian did what you said, the only games that would come out is turds like DA2. sanatized not to offend anyone, dumbed down for the stupid masses, no choices, voiced protag that only has good/evil choices...etc. So no, no more limiting the game or being ruled by nanny esrb thank you very much. I think some of you are missing the whole point of the game being FAN FUNDED. Its so we don't have to sanitize, dumb down, or anything else that corporations do. Brian did a video or interview (cant remember which), where he said he was making this for the fans and NOT for the mass market. Which is WHAT WE WANT. Don't worry though, I have a feeling the game will sell very well, companies will try to emulate it, but it will be a disneyed version of rpg's like DA2.

Again, this is being made for the old school pre-esrb players which means create a game that they want to make with NO LIMITS on their creative freedom.

Pretty sure there is a difference between dumbed down mainstream nonsense and full on sex in video games. The argument that the M rating will limit the team creatively because they can't show graphic sex scenes is ridiculous. Yes, this game is fan funded. But that doesn't mean that every lunatic with an opinion will have an influence on the final product. If there is no reason related to the story (or a side story) to have graphic sexual content then there is no point in putting it in. It's not catering to the ESRB or the mass market. It's simply not including over the top and unimportant elements to a game that doesn't need them. Show me another Fargo game pre ESRB that has lots of graphical sexual content and I will concede the point. Also, I want to point out that most of the people that are pro AO rating say things like "It's what WE want" when clearly there is a lot of people who think differently.

[Lucky]

[–]BrianFargoCEO inXile Entertainment[S] 56 points 6 hours ago
I can pretty much guarantee this will have a minimum of an M rating. We don't plan to pull any punches when it comes to adult subjects. Our audience can handle this and it is the world the fans want to see. A post apocalyptic world is not a pretty place.

If an M rating is the minimum for Brain Fargo, then it stands to reason they have considered the AO rating. I trust the devs enough to give them freedom to decide. No suits will be making choices this time.

"in an interview with Gamasutra, when the topic of AO rated games was brought up, ESRB president Patricia Vance didn’t shy away from this particularly controversial talking point. She pointed out that the average consumer immediately associates this rating with sexual content, while ultra-violent content can merit an AO as well.

""You know up to this point most people associate AO with sexual content. We’ve actually assigned AO ratings for violent content as well; it’s just that most of the time that product gets edited or changed in order to warrant an M rating, so you never see it in the market.""

""With regard to the possibility that we’ll see an influx of more AO rated games as digital distribution becomes more and more relevant, Vance was particularly optimistic towards the idea, sharing her belief that more of these games would in fact be a positive thing for the industry.

But yeah, it’s very possible that there will be greater acceptance of an AO rating going forward. And by the way, I think that would be a good thing for the system. It’s very frustrating that publishers can’t release AO product, in many cases.""

http://playstationlifestyle.net/2012/04 ... he-system/

[Drool]

"in an interview with Gamasutra, when the topic of AO rated games was brought up, ESRB president Patricia Vance didn’t shy away from this particularly controversial talking point. She pointed out that the average consumer immediately associates this rating with sexual content, while ultra-violent content can merit an AO as well.

It can, but it's only happened once.

[Lucky]

""You know up to this point most people associate AO with sexual content. We’ve actually assigned AO ratings for violent content as well; it’s just that most of the time that product gets edited or changed in order to warrant an M rating, so you never see it in the market.""

[Drool]

It's deja vu all over again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AO-rated_products

Or would it help if I use bold and underline to point out that, despite what she says, there has only been one game rated AO for something other than sex.

And it wasn't Manhunt 2 ("Blood and Gore, Intense Violence, Strong Language, Strong Sexual Content, Use of Drugs"), it was "Peak Entertainment Casinos".

[Lucky]

Drool,

The point is we have no idea what an AO rating really is.

The only games that have had an AO are not mass market games. Any major developer avoids an AO like the plague. So, we have no idea what has been toned down.

W2 will deal with very complicated adult situation (ie, slavery, murder, sex, etc.) if it is true to its goals.

The truth is a top down game will not be "graphic" in any way. It can't be. But, it could still get rated AO for mature themes and content(ie words).

I don''t care what rating it gets, I am playing it. I trust Brain Fargo. If he says the minimum is M, then he knows what I am looking for in a game as an adult.

[Woolfe]

Drool,

The point is we have no idea what an AO rating really is.

The only games that have had an AO are not mass market games. Any major developer avoids an AO like the plague. So, we have no idea what has been toned down.

W2 will deal with very complicated adult situation (ie, slavery, murder, sex, etc.) if it is true to its goals.

The truth is a top down game will not be "graphic" in any way. It can't be. But, it could still get rated AO for mature themes and content(ie words).

I don''t care what rating it gets, I am playing it. I trust Brain Fargo. If he says the minimum is M, then he knows what I am looking for in a game as an adult.

Um... it says what AO is on the ESRB rating page. http://www.esrb.org/ratings/ratings_guide.jsp
"prolonged scenes of intense violence" is the violent bit that pretty much will be the only thing that has the potential to affect the Mature rating. Unless of course Wasteland 2 becomes a porno in between now and release.

The key elements there are "Prolonged" and "Intense".

And I don't think Wasteland2 is going to = Manhunt 3, which is the only game still AO(but only on PC).

Maybe if we do run into this problem later, Brian will tell us exactly what bits are considered AO. Then we might have a litmus test.
In Aus, because it is government mandated, they actually tell you what bits have caused the AO.

Isn't ESRB voluntary? As in InXile will set the rating as they beleive, and unless someone complains it will stay that way!

[Drool]

Isn't ESRB voluntary? As in InXile will set the rating as they beleive, and unless someone complains it will stay that way!

ESRB is voluntary, but I believe Steam requires it, and Steam is going to be one of the distribution points.

[Brother None]

ESRB is voluntary, but I believe Steam requires it, and Steam is going to be one of the distribution points.

I don't believe Steam does. Avadon has no ESRB rating, but it's on Steam. Most indies don't have ESRB ratings. I would expect there's some kind of exemption rule for indies on both Steam and other DD retailers, but I don't know how it works.

[Azriel]

AO is just a loophole created to ban/censor games for any reason. It should not even exist, They need to replace mature/adult with 18+ rating since that is the age you can get adult material anyway.

AO is not just sex, I think if they use real world drugs in the game, I also think kid killing (which should be in the game since it was in the original) will get an AO rating, also torture depending on how its done will probably get it (metal gear and a few others squeaked by), extreme violence...etc. Do you know how screwed up the rating system is? Companies have to send the MOST QUESTIONABLE CONTENT in video format to the esrb. The esrb gets a group of RANDOM PEOPLE off the street and they watch the videos and they vote on what rating they think the game should be. Then the esrb takes in their view and then decides what the final rating should be. It's total BS and random. It is pretty personal subjective based on personal beliefs. I have seen games that are pretty violent get teen rating, while a game, that might as well be from disney gets an M rating. Its crazy sometimes.

I fully expect there to be mature adult materiel in the game. That is why people are funding it, put a poll up if you think people want the generic censored stuff they can get anywhere, or a game that covers adult mature topics without holding back. I think we all know what the poll will show at the end.

I wish someone had asked brian if the game needs to be rated to be released on the reddit ama, or if they would have a problem releasing an AO rated game IF it came to that. I am NOT saying that the game should get an AO rating just to get one. If they create a dark/gritty game that does not hold back, gets an M rating, and doesn't feel like they watered or censored the game to keep it an M rating. Then fan-freaking-tastic. However, I want them not to worry about ratings at all, just create a fantastic game with the adult elements we have all wanted. Like I said, perhaps they can sell directly off their website or other digital distribuation that does not worry about esrb. Or perhaps they can create an edited/censored version (after the game is finished!), for countries that have sucky laws, while letting the rest of us enjoy the full uncensored version.

I am pretty happy that brian said the game would get AT LEAST an M rating.

Oh yea, I think indie devs don't have esrb on stem, but not sure.

[abdiel420]

Honestly, none of this debate really matters. Fargo and the team will make the game the way they are going to make it, and if the ESRB slaps it with an AO rating they can worry about it then. We are talking more than a year from now, and I doubt the team is going to tone down what they want in the game just in case the ESRB doesn't like it. We should just trust the devs to do their job and stop telling them what they already know.