AO, M or Teen?

[Signal]

I prefer to make it to best possible with all the themes and mechanics to fit Wasteland. If it results in AO, so be it, but limiting devs to M is just as bad.

Out of curiosity, what themes or mechanics can only be explored with an AO rating and no lower?

[homeslice82]

I have no idea and I don't care. As far as i know, I have never played an AO game. As I said, I think an M rating can work. However, the point is not that this should be this or that. My point is the Dev team should be free to give us their vision of the wasteland without a filter. After all this game is for adults, not kids. If the Dev team sees no use for heads exploding like blood sausages or anything else that might bring on the AO then that is their call not mine.

Here is an idea, why don't you post a reply with what you would like to see instead of nitpicking at what others would like and if you want a Teen rating then just say so.

Bro, next time, take a second to acquaint yourself with the subject before posting. There are only 21 games rated AO. All but one of them (Manhunt 2, which was torture porn) has that rating solely because of incredibly graphic sex. Exploding heads are in everything--they're even in Fallout 3. Graphic dismemberment has appeared in the Soldier of Fortune games. You could gib kids in Fallout 1 (M) and Baldur's Gate (T). The Postal series contains acts of violence and depravity far beyond anything anyone has expressed a desire to see in WL2, and every one of its games is rated M anyway.

If you lobby for AO, you're lobbying for hardcore sex scenes--and possibly for Manhunt 2-style torture porn, depending on whether ESRB is testing its political power. Know this. If you don't think that would be a good idea, then stop arguing about it.

[Lucky]

If you lobby for AO, you're lobbying for hardcore sex scenes--and possibly for Manhunt 2-style torture porn, depending on whether ESRB is testing its political power. Know this. If you don't think that would be a good idea, then stop arguing about it.

Where did I ever lobby for an AO rating?

You either need a reading comprehension course or you are a troll.

[BMF]

I would say just ignore the rating system and whatever rating it gets, it gets. Im certain WasteLand 2 will be at least M and I would like it if they borderd on AO or even crossed over. This is one of the very few games released nowadays that doesnt have to watch out for political bullshit because the development is 100% fan funded. If afew people get offended then in my eyes you have done your job right and not just stuck to the beaten path. The apocalypse will not be a friendly place and as such I expect to see some situations that would make a grown man squirm.


On the subject of a AO game on Steam: Im willing to bet that Gabe Newell would make an acception for WL2 if the game turns out to be of excellent quality and will let it on steam even if it is AO. Gabe is a cool guy im sure all it would take to get a AO WasteLand 2 on steam is a lunch with Gabe Newell to explain that the setting required it.

[homeslice82]

If you lobby for AO, you're lobbying for hardcore sex scenes--and possibly for Manhunt 2-style torture porn, depending on whether ESRB is testing its political power. Know this. If you don't think that would be a good idea, then stop arguing about it.

Where did I ever lobby for an AO rating?

You either need a reading comprehension course or you are a troll.

No, I'm just taking you as a representation of everyone who makes similar arguments (see BMF above me, for example).

In any case, you said that, unless Steam won't carry it as a result, there's no reason for it not to be AO. My argument is that there is a reason--namely, that the only way to achieve AO would be to include stuff that no one (including you) actually wants. This means that the entire thread is pointless, and that you might as well have said, "I'd like the game to be rated M than than T, please."

[BMF]

If you lobby for AO, you're lobbying for hardcore sex scenes--and possibly for Manhunt 2-style torture porn, depending on whether ESRB is testing its political power. Know this. If you don't think that would be a good idea, then stop arguing about it.

Where did I ever lobby for an AO rating?

You either need a reading comprehension course or you are a troll.

No, I'm just taking you as a representation of everyone who makes similar arguments.

In any case, you said that, unless Steam won't carry it as a result, there's no reason for it not to be AO. My argument is that there is a reason--namely, that the only way to achieve AO would be to include stuff that no one (including you) actually wants. This means that the entire thread is pointless, and that you might as well have said, "I'd like the game to be rated M than than T, please."

I think what everyone is getting at is that ratings shouldnt even be a concern. Most game devs will go to add content to the game and have to make sure they wont offend anyone or bring down big bad ESRB, InXile shouldnt even give a second thought toward "Will that offend somone" if it fits put it in. The Witcher 2 proved you can have full frontal nudity and drawn out sex scenes and still get a M rating, they just made sure you never saw Geralts cock and all was good lol.

[Lucky]

"n an interview with Gamasutra, when the topic of AO rated games was brought up, ESRB president Patricia Vance didn’t shy away from this particularly controversial talking point. She pointed out that the average consumer immediately associates this rating with sexual content, while ultra-violent content can merit an AO as well.

""You know up to this point most people associate AO with sexual content. We’ve actually assigned AO ratings for violent content as well; it’s just that most of the time that product gets edited or changed in order to warrant an M rating, so you never see it in the market.""

http://playstationlifestyle.net/2012/04 ... he-system/

Something to think about. For me, this just illustrates that there should be no limit put on the Dev team in terms of content, themes or anything else. If it is an M fine, if it an AO fine. I'm over 18, every person who played the original when it came out is over 18 and I would assume that the majority of the backers are over 18.

The project has raised over 2.4 million dollars so far on Kickstarter. The original goal was 900k. There are over 51k backers. This game is already a success in my book. It will get a huge amount of publicity for the way it was funded and if it is great then word of mouth will create a huge demand for it. AO or M will be irrelevant to sales, imo.

[BMF]

"n an interview with Gamasutra, when the topic of AO rated games was brought up, ESRB president Patricia Vance didn’t shy away from this particularly controversial talking point. She pointed out that the average consumer immediately associates this rating with sexual content, while ultra-violent content can merit an AO as well.

""You know up to this point most people associate AO with sexual content. We’ve actually assigned AO ratings for violent content as well; it’s just that most of the time that product gets edited or changed in order to warrant an M rating, so you never see it in the market.""

http://playstationlifestyle.net/2012/04 ... he-system/

Something to think about. For me, this just illustrates that the should be no limit put on the Dev team. If it is an M fine, if it an AO fine. I'm over 18, every person who played the original when it came out is over 18 and I would assume that the majority of the backers are over 18.

This is exactly the sensoring we dont need, companys should never cut somthing out after the fact just to adhear to this stupid system. No wonder the blood gore and combat effects have been getting worse not better in recent years people are scared of the AO.

[Ekaros]

"n an interview with Gamasutra, when the topic of AO rated games was brought up, ESRB president Patricia Vance didn’t shy away from this particularly controversial talking point. She pointed out that the average consumer immediately associates this rating with sexual content, while ultra-violent content can merit an AO as well.

""You know up to this point most people associate AO with sexual content. We’ve actually assigned AO ratings for violent content as well; it’s just that most of the time that product gets edited or changed in order to warrant an M rating, so you never see it in the market.""

http://playstationlifestyle.net/2012/04 ... he-system/

Something to think about. For me, this just illustrates that the should be no limit put on the Dev team. If it is an M fine, if it an AO fine. I'm over 18, every person who played the original when it came out is over 18 and I would assume that the majority of the backers are over 18.

Even large majority of original Fallout fans are over 18. And ratings haven't ever stopped anyone.

I believe main reason there isn't AO-rated games in Steam is the fact that most of them are crap or h-games... And Steam sometimes does have some standards.

I don't understand where this weird idea came from that someone would want game to be made to AO rating. The point is devs shouldn't care what the rating will be. It's possible to do for this project.

[homeslice82]

"n an interview with Gamasutra, when the topic of AO rated games was brought up, ESRB president Patricia Vance didn’t shy away from this particularly controversial talking point. She pointed out that the average consumer immediately associates this rating with sexual content, while ultra-violent content can merit an AO as well.

""You know up to this point most people associate AO with sexual content. We’ve actually assigned AO ratings for violent content as well; it’s just that most of the time that product gets edited or changed in order to warrant an M rating, so you never see it in the market.""

http://playstationlifestyle.net/2012/04 ... he-system/

Um, duh? I already said this maybe three times? Manhunt 2. Only time it's ever happened. Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_AO-rated_products

The only other candidate would be The Punisher, which ultimately didn't receive the rating. And guess what? It was torture porn, too. Plus, all that was done to censor it was a black-and-white color palette.

Something to think about. For me, this just illustrates that there should be no limit put on the Dev team in terms of content, themes or anything else. If it is an M fine, if it an AO fine. I'm over 18, every person who played the original when it came out is over 18 and I would assume that the majority of the backers are over 18.

As I've said 500 times, the only stuff that would make it AO is as follows: ludicrously graphic sex, and torture porn-esque violence. No one wants any of that. It doesn't fit the series.

The project has raised over 2.4 million dollars so far on Kickstarter. The original goal was 900k. There are over 51k backers. This game is already a success in my book. It will get a huge amount of publicity for the way it was funded and if it is great then word of mouth will create a huge demand for it. AO or M will be irrelevant to sales, imo.

If they were fine with making absolutely no profit, then sure.

[Lucky]

""With regard to the possibility that we’ll see an influx of more AO rated games as digital distribution becomes more and more relevant, Vance was particularly optimistic towards the idea, sharing her belief that more of these games would in fact be a positive thing for the industry.

But yeah, it’s very possible that there will be greater acceptance of an AO rating going forward. And by the way, I think that would be a good thing for the system. It’s very frustrating that publishers can’t release AO product, in many cases.""

http://playstationlifestyle.net/2012/04 ... he-system/

Same article from three days ago from the President of the ESRB.

Just read this.

[–]BrianFargoCEO inXile Entertainment[S] 56 points 6 hours ago
I can pretty much guarantee this will have a minimum of an M rating. We don't plan to pull any punches when it comes to adult subjects. Our audience can handle this and it is the world the fans want to see. A post apocalyptic world is not a pretty place.

[Shady314]

The AO rating is dumb anyways. All it really means is don't show nipples because that's bad but FO3 and such can show heads exploding from the inside out in SLOW MOTION?! Different argument though.

Homeslice is right that this is a moot point. I doubt the graphics are going to be good enough that even if they included graphic depictions of sex they could get an AO rating. Look how far God of War could go with their sex minigame and still get an M.

[Azriel]

The ESRB needs to die by painful fire. I hope Brian and the team do not even think of ESRB. I want them to create a game like the long long ago days before the ratings board even existed. Make a great game, make it dark, make it brutal, and don't worry about anything else. Does the ESRB even factor in? I think the game will be digital distribution, only kickstarter people who buy the boxed version will be getting it. So its not going to a retail store. Can't they leave the game unrated? Or if they have to get it rated by the esrb, perhaps they should ignore steam and try gog instead. They might be more open to having a non rated game for sale.

The point is that I don't want the game to be dumbed down or censored because of fear of the nanny esrb. For example, killable kids, there is no way the esrb would even allow that below an AO game. However, its expected in W2 because it WAS in the first one and will be a disappointment because we were all expecting to go back to the glory days of when we could do anything in a game, even things other people might find objectable. That is what made the old games so fantastic and memorable. I personally don't care if we kill kids or not and was just using it as an example. I just want a great game that will not feel that it played it safe by not including things people would find offensive.

[homeslice82]

Homeslice is right that this is a moot point. I doubt the graphics are going to be good enough that even if they included graphic depictions of sex they could get an AO rating. Look how far God of War could go with their sex minigame and still get an M.

Thank you. I'm glad someone was listening.

[LordLJ]

I think we need to clarify some things; for us, and others who read this.

Just because a person wants the game to be M rated, and not AO, does not mean they want to limit the expression of the Wasteland team. The reason to make the game M rated, is because then the game can be sold much more easily.

I want the developers to do whatever they want with Wasteland. I want them to explore all kinds of adult themes, ideas, etc. But, you can do that in a way that prevents an AO rating. I'd like as many people as possible to be able to play this game, and an AO rating hampers that. Sides, if the developers decide they want some AO content in the game, they can add it in later (To my knowledge), or a modder will add it in later.

This is a time to work around the system, not fight it.

[krellen]

I do not want any choices - not one single one, at all, ever during the entire development process - to be determined based off the ability to sell the final product. That sort of thinking is why we're here in the first place.

[LordLJ]

I do not want any choices - not one single one, at all, ever during the entire development process - to be determined based off the ability to sell the final product. That sort of thinking is why we're here in the first place.

This what I'm getting at. NOTHING should be scraped to sell the game, but the final in game actions don't have to be PRESENTED in an AO manner. We're all adults; we can understand that a person just had sex, or was killed violently, without having to see it.

I agree that it is stupid people have to dance around ratings to sell games, but that is the way it is, and I rather the game sell, and grow as a franchise.

[Azriel]

I do not want any choices - not one single one, at all, ever during the entire development process - to be determined based off the ability to sell the final product. That sort of thinking is why we're here in the first place.

This what I'm getting at. NOTHING should be scraped to sell the game, but the final in game actions don't have to be PRESENTED in an AO manner. We're all adults; we can understand that a person just had sex, or was killed violently, without having to see it.

I agree that it is stupid people have to dance around ratings to sell games, but that is the way it is, and I rather the game sell, and grow as a franchise.

Nooooo! The whole point that many of us are donating is that we don't want a bs censored game for mass appeal(which is what it would be the moment the dev team worries about ratings). This is being made for those of us who existed before the nanny esrb rating bs. If Brian wanted mass appeal he would have made red boots for the game.

[LordLJ]

The game game can, and should, be the exact way the developers want it. However, you don't have to show someone being graphically tortured, to know they are being graphically tortured. To show the actual act of someone being tortured, or having sex, in the game, only serves to show it. If, for example, in game, it's stated: Billy was horrifyingly raped, and tortured. Instead of showing those actions just for the sake of showing those actions, the game will avoid the controversy, and retain the artistic point.

The developers can push the limit of M rating, that is fine, but to crossover into AO territory requires excessive violence and sex, which the game probably won't have at that level anyway.

[Shady314]

The game game can, and should, be the exact way the developers want it. However, you don't have to show someone being graphically tortured, to know they are being graphically tortured. To show the actual act of someone being tortured, or having sex, in the game, only serves to show it. If, for example, in game, it's stated: Billy was horrifyingly raped, and tortured. Instead of showing those actions just for the sake of showing those actions, the game will avoid the controversy, and retain the artistic point.

But possibly lose the impact of the act. It's a graphic medium. NOT showing it rarely gives the same emotional impact as telling. I know for example people are suffering greatly in other parts of the world. I even hear and read about it. Still affects me 100x more on an emotional level to see a starving child or someone missing a limb etc.

Censorship rarely allows you to "retain the artistic point."

Again though this entire discussion is such a waste of time (even more so than usual for the internet!). The graphics of WL2 make an AO rating nearly impossible. They'd have to write in explicit erotic fiction or something. Which I'm not even against or anything but I just highly doubt Brian is planning on doing that.