Shotguns and leather armor versus futuristic arsenal

[suz]

Unless they go on with the idea to make different power suits for different needs e.g. A "powered" armor with stabilizers and trajectory calculator for snipers.

[Comrade Nightmare]

someone who hasn't posted here in over a month

Thank Gaia.

[Woolfe]

It is relevant because in a role playing game you want to have choices that shapes the character(s) you play.

Sorry, "choice" is not the defining element of a role-playing game. Especially not in the realm of computerised role-playing games. RPGs are defined by your character's skill determining the success of your actions, not the player's skill.

Any game can have choices - FPS are full of choices, especially in the realm of gear.

After reading a couple of your posts i'm ready to go out on a limb and say you're retarded. Yes?

Anyone else see the irony of posting that in a Forum under "Mood and Maturity Level"

I personally didn't agree with Krellen in a lot of cases and this particular comment is pretty wrong, altho it has been taken somewhat out of context.

But it is a bit puerile to resurrect a thread just to say something like that, especially when the target isn't around to defend himself.

[MrMoe]

One thing that bothered me in Fallout 1&2 was the amount of firepower needed to take out an opponent. A heavy, gun powder handgun hardly killed a human with one shot. A 9mm pistol had virtually no stopping power unless you aimed for the eyes.

The armor and ammunition system of fallout wasnt perfect but not that far fetched from being realistic. Wearing a bullet proof vest does stop a bullet, especially from a greater range.
A knife stab or a bullet to the eye is always fatal, but you cant do that ingame, or the game gets to easy at a certain point.
You have to compromise to make this game fun and challenging

[kingsword]

To OP: Errr, nope. For me, the true Fallout feel is with miniguns and power armor. Leather jacket never really did it for me, I dropped it without a second thought. It isn't a Mad Max game, there are giant scorpions with miniguns for the first concept art pieces and screenshot. Should be telling something. Though Max himself also used the best gear when he could, doubt he was wearing leather for the looks.

[scotttocs]

Just a thought - but there is another way to give disadvantages to full power-armor and heavy weaponry.

Namely - if you aren't in your military base, the townspeople probably aren't going to want to trade with or talk to you. You are no longer a wandering ranger in their eyes, but a scary combat machine.

A little encumbrance if you have to carry that stuff without wearing it, and it being obviously for massive combat, your effective charisma and interaction could suffer massively.

Not everything is about combat advantages. You still have a world there...

[suz]

Just a thought - There's no need to give heavy armor any disadvantages.

If you're in heavy armor it means:
1) You've made the effort to get it - I expect some challenge in obtaining high end gear.
2) The game gear progress justifies it - Jogging around in PJs at end game doesn't strike me as good "gear progress".
3) You use it to overcome enemies that can't be defeated, or are very hard to defeat in leather armor - And I do expect challenge as per the vision doc.

Please don't fuck up end game difficulty and item progress because a few someones want some niche game play value in wearing leather armor for the full game duration(which wasn't the case in WL1 since you always wore the best armor you could lay your hands on).

I'm not an expert but I don't think WL1 was ever about a bunch of bums in leather jackets bumming around the wasteland deflecting bullets like a party of supermen/wonderwomen. If you want it to be so - you can face the consequences of harder combat.

PS. As for people not trusting "scary combat machine" - people in the wasteland shouldn't trust anyone regardless of how they look, but if you really want some arcane charisma penalty then add up a bonus to intimidation because that's what you claim the heavy armor does - intimidates people.

[Drool]

1) You've made the effort to get it - I expect some challenge in obtaining high end gear.

True. Assaulting the Guardian's Citadel to get that sweet, sweet power armor (and more energy weapons than you could shake a stick at) is one of the things a lot of people remember from the game, even twenty years on.

[csebal]

Okay, so it is a role playing thing, then let's play a role.

Let's pretend, that you are a soldier, who actually has to go out and fight bad guys. Let's pretend that you are a cop who goes into the worst part of town on a patrol at night.

I'm certain, that playing those roles would be perfectly in line with not wearing any sort of protection, as it makes you look stupid or because it is uncomfortable.

Bringing up all those movie examples is pointless if not outright stupid. First, heroes never get hit in movies, or if they do, it is a minor flesh wound or at a point where they are about to be rescued anywhere, leading up to a romance scene with some chick who will take care of our wounded hero. Second, enemies in such armor tend to die by the dozen, except for the main antagonist who - again - is more protected by his plot armor, than the metal frying pan he wears as a hat.

So no.. there is no reason not to have an armor progression in a tactical role playing game and you cannot really argue for wearing less protective stuff by claiming that you are playing the role of Max, the mad hermit of the wastes.

I mean sure, knock yourself out, but accept the fact, that if you choose to stick with leather when there are better options available to you, then you will be all that more vulnerable and will probably not live as long as you could have.

[Tiwaz]

Okay, so it is a role playing thing, then let's play a role.

Let's pretend, that you are a soldier, who actually has to go out and fight bad guys. Let's pretend that you are a cop who goes into the worst part of town on a patrol at night.

I'm certain, that playing those roles would be perfectly in line with not wearing any sort of protection, as it makes you look stupid or because it is uncomfortable.

Bringing up all those movie examples is pointless if not outright stupid. First, heroes never get hit in movies, or if they do, it is a minor flesh wound or at a point where they are about to be rescued anywhere, leading up to a romance scene with some chick who will take care of our wounded hero. Second, enemies in such armor tend to die by the dozen, except for the main antagonist who - again - is more protected by his plot armor, than the metal frying pan he wears as a hat.

So no.. there is no reason not to have an armor progression in a tactical role playing game and you cannot really argue for wearing less protective stuff by claiming that you are playing the role of Max, the mad hermit of the wastes.

I mean sure, knock yourself out, but accept the fact, that if you choose to stick with leather when there are better options available to you, then you will be all that more vulnerable and will probably not live as long as you could have.

I rather agree with this point... Roleplaying ranger... Well, I prefer not to roleplay an idiot, who wants to stick to his trusty leather armour and bowie knife, despite standing next to full suit of PA and machinegun.

Boring? Not necessarily, I DO prefer variety in weapons so that they fill different niches (different niche not meaning 7 bullets more in clip). But I have hard time convincingly thinking in roleplay sense of person who decides to discard option to wear lots of protection for minute amounts of "mobility".

Hell, even sniper can benefit from power armour. Suitably teched, it can compensate for involuntary twitches, breathing and other movement of body which would disturb the aim, providing solid firing position for sniper. Who is supposed to be far away, so that small size increase is not THAT important.

[kira]

I have this and this only to say.

Heavy power armor blocks a bullet.

Leather armor does not.

function>style

[The Doctor]

What about leather armor with Kevlar inserts?
And I think power armor should be susceptible to large caliber, high powered, armor piercing shells.

[Mandemon]

What about leather armor with Kevlar inserts?
And I think power armor should be susceptible to large caliber, high powered, armor piercing shells.

If it can pierce Power Armor, it most likely won't even notice leather armor...

[The Doctor]

What about leather armor with Kevlar inserts?
And I think power armor should be susceptible to large caliber, high powered, armor piercing shells.

If it can pierce Power Armor, it most likely won't even notice leather armor...

True, but with the inserts the leather armor should be viable in a later stage in the game.

[Woolfe]

So is this where I bring up the whole "what is power armour" argument again.

Power armour could be
- A suit of armour that is "powered" to allow/improve movement and armour.
- Shield type force field that is "powered"
- A suit of armour that is powered to create an effect in the actual armour that provides defencive bonuses.

OR a combination of the three.

So in theory if you had a suit of leather armour that had a shield generator, it is in fact powered

I know I am splitting hairs here, but my point is you can't really make assumptions until we have more information from the devs.

[Priest4hire]

What about leather armor with Kevlar inserts?
And I think power armor should be susceptible to large caliber, high powered, armor piercing shells.

The thing about leather is that it really isn't good armour. It offers marginal cut protection, against small knives and the like, but negligible protection against penetrating or blunt force weapons. Leather with kevlar is just kevlar armour with useless extra weight attached. Why not just wear the kevlar and be done with it? It would be effective against handgun rounds excepting those designed to penetrate body armour as well as shotguns. It would be worthless against nearly any sort of rifle.

Note that one can harden leather. Then it offers slightly better cut protection but much worse flexibility. Personally, I'd want ceramic plates in my armour at the very least. The best class 4 armour with plates can stop a .308 SLAP (saboted light armor penetrator) rounds. That's a little more like it.

So is this where I bring up the whole "what is power armour" argument again.

In popular usage, power armour refers to armour that contains a powered exoskeleton. Using the term to refer to anything else would be deliberately dicking with the fans. If it was a force field generator, why not call it that? Thing is, I'd expect power armour to be rather delicate. I know that sounds odd. But consider the complex computer technology required and the power source. Even as it's externally rugged, it would also be vulnerable to the effects of aging and exposure. Functional power armour should be rare indeed, and servicing it should require extreme expertise.

Given the difficulty in producing the stuff and the ability of non-powered armour to protect, I'd expect power armour to stop any normal rifle round including .50 SLAP rounds. Not so much with rockets or anti-tank shells. Here's a random thought though: How about power armour with explosive reactive armour? There's an image.

[The Doctor]

What about leather armor with Kevlar inserts?
And I think power armor should be susceptible to large caliber, high powered, armor piercing shells.

The thing about leather is that it really isn't good armour. It offers marginal cut protection, against small knives and the like, but negligible protection against penetrating or blunt force weapons. Leather with kevlar is just kevlar armour with useless extra weight attached. Why not just wear the kevlar and be done with it? It would be effective against handgun rounds excepting those designed to penetrate body armour as well as shotguns. It would be worthless against nearly any sort of rifle.

Note that one can harden leather. Then it offers slightly better cut protection but much worse flexibility. Personally, I'd want ceramic plates in my armour at the very least. The best class 4 armour with plates can stop a .308 SLAP (saboted light armor penetrator) rounds. That's a little more like it.

Those were just a couple of thoughts that popped into my head as I read this topic. What you say makes a lot more sense, concerning ceramics. I really wouldn't expect leather armor to be useful throughout the whole game, there comes a time when you simply must upgrade to something better or suffer the consequences.
In the Fallout series of games I find that the Combat Armor is the best looking armor, and tend to try and hold on to it as long as I can survive combat reasonably well. This also holds true with certain weapons I find aesthetically pleasing, such as the AK47 style of gun.
So I guess it's fashion over function for me.

[reiniat]

PAs are wrong because they have no disadvantages, and.....ok this whole treath almost spelled everything.
Anyway im sure devs will introduce the PA as god like armor for end game, and as soon as i obtain it i will sell it to a merchant because i hate it. (the power of choices )

[Hiver]

Hmm, "nice" discussion you boys have here. Let me jump in.


Let me first say i would definitely agree with there being only one or two power armors available for the rangers, instead of a whole set for the whole team - including NPC allies.
I would also agree with including some reasonable disadvantages mentioned.

But, it seems a bit odd to me nobody thought about two other very reasonable possibilities.
Probably because all of the heat of the...discussion. heh...

1. Heavy armors should give Damage Resistance - not Armor Class.
- Armor class actually makes the player more difficult to hit. Its a bad mechanic.
A huge, bulky, heavy armor cannot make you become more difficult to hit. Your very size while wearing it is enlarged and by being heavy it makes you move much slower, right?
Therefore - heavy or PA armors should make you easier to hit. While providing Damage Resistance.
Now, that can mean you dont take any damage at all, in some cases. But, different types of ammo or weapons should negate this resistance to a smaller or greater extent. DR can be different for different types of weapons.
Its not like DR should make you completely invulnerable.

It should also directly lower your dexterity (and all skills dependent on it) by a certain percentage, and all other abilities relaying on speed generally.

DR is the way to go.
(Age of Decadence uses this approach - it works beautifully by making light armors very useful and basically mandatory for characters builds that rely on dexterity/speed related skills)


2. Power source or Fuel.

What fuels PA? ("energy cells", i know, rhetorical question)
Is this resource indefinite? I dont think it should be.
If it was limited from the start or depleteable by use - it would make you choose carefully when and where to use it.
(finding one or two places where you could "refill" would then become very interesting quests)

2.a - This plays well with idea of finding Power Armors that are more or less damaged instead of just being in superb condition.
Which logically - is the way it should be in Post apocalyptic setting.

Some should be very low on energy from the start - others damaged and so providing less physical protection (smaller DR) or smaller other bonuses.


- edit-

Oh yeah... ordinary melee weapons and ordinary fire arms should have zero effect on advanced enemies. ZERO!
No damaging Scorpitrons and such metal armored advanced enemies with knives, crowbars or ordinary pistols, rifles and automatic weapons! NONE!

[Priest4hire]

A few notes. Armour class, as the name itself suggests, reduces the likelihood of the person inside the armour being hit. This can mean being missed entirely or being hit by something that fails to penetrate the armour. Either way, the person isn't hit. It's abstracting the two together. Damage threshold instead abstracts together the amount of damage a weapon would do with its ability to penetrate armour. These are not necessarily the same. Consider the 12 gauge with 00 buckshot. Very damaging to unarmoured opponents but very poor at penetrating body armour. Another approach is to do a separate amour penetration test that takes into account the amour's protective abilities, the attack's penetration and where the attack hit.

Since power armour is powered, it shouldn't be slow. After all, the powered joints should be capable of moving as fast as the person operating it, and it takes up its own weight plus some. Bulky and heavy, but not slow. I'd think that the armour would tend either to be maintained and thus fully functional, or abandoned and non-functional. The complex systems that run the armour have to work or it's unusable. And it would be so damn heavy that carting it around would be impractical.