Fanservice

[Azriel]

Thats interesting, since the games of old were designed for teenagers(which could handle mature/adult themes before the esrb came around) of the time. It doesn't have to be one or the other, you can have the substance in the game while including a moderate amount of fanservice which doesn't take anything away.

No you can't. That's the thing, you can't have a cake and eat it. It's either you make decisions of the fact how your characters look based on what makes sense, your artistic vision, setting, stylistics or you don't. And every time you don't it takes away from the final product - there's no way around it. It's the same kind of decision that Bethesda made by making Fallout 3 an FPS. Not that it made the most sense or was going to result in a better game. But it sure as hell made the screenshots much flashier. And no, you can't make a game a moderate amount FPS.

*blink*, I am trying to wrap my head around what you just said. How does making F3 into a FPS relate to this? That is a very extreme example and probably was a bad choice of words on your part. However, I think I understand what you are saying and I disagree completely. Speaking of fallout, Fallout 2 had seriousness AND fanservice, yet it is a cult classic that is fondly remembered by most players. You just have to do it in the right amount.

[Color Blotch]

*blink*, I am trying to wrap my head around what you just said. How does making F3 into a FPS relate to this? That is a very extreme example and probably was a bad choice of words on your part. However, I think I understand what you are saying and I disagree completely. Speaking of fallout, Fallout 2 had seriousness AND fanservice, yet it is a cult classic that is fondly remembered by most players. You just have to do it in the right amount.

I believe you just speaking of some other kind of "fanservice", because I don't remember any of it in Fallout 1/2. Everything in these games, serious or not, falls perfectly into the game's grim/sadistic/ironic style. This is exactly the world the authors tried to render and they did a great job at doing it.

Now consider if all the characters in that game were made to look like your typical anime personalities: big eyes and spiky hair, plus they were given some cute transforming monster pets including the deathclaw-chan, because maybe you know this is all the rage with teenagers now. Do you think a little bit of that wouldn't hurt? Because if so we're not going to find any common ground here.

Again, if you read my first post, this isn't a question of realism, or seriousness, or explicitness. This is a question of keeping true to your style, instead of going for flashy superficial "trendy" stuff for the sake of trendiness. And making RPGs first person shooters relates to this very closely.

[suz]

Fallout 2 just had it a bit subtler than boobs and overexposing armor.

[Equidistant]

Speaking of fallout, Fallout 2 had seriousness AND fanservice, yet it is a cult classic that is fondly remembered by most players. You just have to do it in the right amount.

I'm not sure that you quite understand the meaning of "fanservice." Fanservice doesn't mean "sexual content." It means gratuitous sexual content. Sexual content that serves no other purpose than titillating (usually male) fans. I recommend heading on over TV Tropes for more information: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Fanservice

Fallout 2 did not contain fan service. Sure, there were some sexual themes at times, but that was about it.

The key here is plausibility. It's very plausible that there'd be strippers/prostitutes in a post-Apocalyptic Wasteland. It's also very plausible that they'd be wearing sexy/revealing clothing. What is not plausible is for a female ranger to go running around in the desert with her breasts out there on display. Sexy clothing is highly impractical for serious outdoor travel in a desert environment, let alone combat. Should there be good-looking female rangers? Sure. But they should be good-looking women in practical clothing. Anything else violates the suspension of disbelief and detracts from the game.

[Azriel]

Speaking of fallout, Fallout 2 had seriousness AND fanservice, yet it is a cult classic that is fondly remembered by most players. You just have to do it in the right amount.

I'm not sure that you quite understand the meaning of "fanservice." Fanservice doesn't mean "sexual content." It means gratuitous sexual content. Sexual content that serves no other purpose than titillating (usually male) fans. I recommend heading on over TV Tropes for more information: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Fanservice

Fallout 2 did not contain fan service. Sure, there were some sexual themes at times, but that was about it.

The key here is plausibility. It's very plausible that there'd be strippers/prostitutes in a post-Apocalyptic Wasteland. It's also very plausible that they'd be wearing sexy/revealing clothing. What is not plausible is for a female ranger to go running around in the desert with her breasts out there on display. Sexy clothing is highly impractical for serious outdoor travel in a desert environment, let alone combat. Should there be good-looking female rangers? Sure. But they should be good-looking women in practical clothing. Anything else violates the suspension of disbelief and detracts from the game.

I see nothing about having some sexiness in a game. I do agree that many times some games over do it to usually overcompensate for the crappy game. Still, I expect diversity. I will be disspointed if the only fanservice is the prostitutes and strippers. In life there are women who are sexy, show it off, and use it too their advantage. Whats wrong with representing them in the game? As for the rangers, you should dress them however you want. There should be a variety of outfits, from the type that completly cover them up, to the more revealing/sexy clothing if the player chooses too. Also, I played a few minutes JA which everyone keeps mentioning. There was definetly a variety of women characters, there was the bookworm, the serious, the ice queen, the vixen..etc Variety is best.

[cah]

I will be disspointed if the only fanservice is the prostitutes and strippers.

Do you consider three-legged prostitutes carrying wasteland herpes to be fanservice?

[Azriel]

I will be disspointed if the only fanservice is the prostitutes and strippers.

Do you consider three-legged prostitutes carrying wasteland herpes to be fanservice?

I think it would be entertaining, but it would still be a prostitute. If it was a three legged ranger with wasteland herpes, I would say that would be freaky, but awesome character. Especially if she keeps trying to hit on the other rangers and they suddenly have an unexplained herpes after a camp night.

[cah]

I played a few minutes JA which everyone keeps mentioning. There was definetly a variety of women characters, there was the bookworm, the serious, the ice queen, the vixen..etc Variety is best.

Have you seen any breasts there?

I think it would be entertaining, but it would still be a prostitute. If it was a three legged ranger with wasteland herpes, I would say that would be freaky, but awesome character.

Entertaining - yes. Freaky - yes. But what about it being fanservice?

[suz]

While the specific term "fanservice" arose from the Anime community, the concept of adding a little titillation to a work is far, far older. When nudity or sexual content is an expected part of a work, it's not fanservice; it's only when the nudity or sex is thrown in "just because" that fanservice becomes a part of the narrative. For example, nudity in a pornographic movie would not qualify, while Sharon Stone's infamous "beaver shot" in Paul Verhoeven's Basic Instinct would. Real fanservice is seldom explicit or graphic — that is the territory of pornography. Instead it is primarily there to "add a little extra" by teasing and titillating the audience.

Not expecting filming a porn flick while hunting for a GECK - Check
Not having explicit or graphic sex (Fade to black) - Check
Adds a little spice to otherwise grim game with the above - Check

Why FO2 isn't considered having fan service?

[Color Blotch]

Speaking of fallout, Fallout 2 had seriousness AND fanservice, yet it is a cult classic that is fondly remembered by most players. You just have to do it in the right amount.

I'm not sure that you quite understand the meaning of "fanservice." Fanservice doesn't mean "sexual content." It means gratuitous sexual content. Sexual content that serves no other purpose than titillating (usually male) fans. I recommend heading on over TV Tropes for more information: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Fanservice

Fallout 2 did not contain fan service. Sure, there were some sexual themes at times, but that was about it.

The key here is plausibility. It's very plausible that there'd be strippers/prostitutes in a post-Apocalyptic Wasteland. It's also very plausible that they'd be wearing sexy/revealing clothing. What is not plausible is for a female ranger to go running around in the desert with her breasts out there on display. Sexy clothing is highly impractical for serious outdoor travel in a desert environment, let alone combat. Should there be good-looking female rangers? Sure. But they should be good-looking women in practical clothing. Anything else violates the suspension of disbelief and detracts from the game.

Couldn't agree with you more, although I believe in general "fanservice" doesn't always have to be sexual, even though in most cases it is. Still it's a cheap trick and exactly what's wrong with modern gaming industry. Wasteland 2 is here to fix it, not to incorporate it.

[cah]

Adds a little spice to otherwise grim game with the above - Check

Like what?

[katz]

In life there are women who are sexy, show it off, and use it too their advantage. Whats wrong with representing them in the game?

I'm pretty sure the sort of person who asks this question is not the sort of person who will understand the answer, but the answer is objectification. You want women to exist as eye candy for you. You want a game that sends the message that men are tough and competent and get stuff done with their strength and intellect, but women's only asset is their sexiness (and men have no corresponding sex appeal). You don't care that it makes the game less fun for other people.

TL;DR: You are demanding that the game revolve entirely around your own personal preferences even if that ruins the game for others.

[Equidistant]

While the specific term "fanservice" arose from the Anime community, the concept of adding a little titillation to a work is far, far older. When nudity or sexual content is an expected part of a work, it's not fanservice; it's only when the nudity or sex is thrown in "just because" that fanservice becomes a part of the narrative. For example, nudity in a pornographic movie would not qualify, while Sharon Stone's infamous "beaver shot" in Paul Verhoeven's Basic Instinct would. Real fanservice is seldom explicit or graphic — that is the territory of pornography. Instead it is primarily there to "add a little extra" by teasing and titillating the audience.

Not expecting filming a porn flick while hunting for a GECK - Check
Not having explicit or graphic sex (Fade to black) - Check
Adds a little spice to otherwise grim game with the above - Check

Why FO2 isn't considered having fan service?

Because there's nothing titillating in Fallout 2. When the page talks about "explicit" or "graphic" that means frontal nudity and graphic sex, as opposed to plunging necklines and very short skirts. Fallout 2 may have referenced sexual material, but there weren't close-ups of women in hypersexual outfits. Check out the example section - fan service refers to your Lara Crofts, your Bayonettas, even your Cortanas (at least in Halo 2 & 3). Not to the presence of a pixellated madam or some

To be honest, though, I have a feeling that you know exactly what we're talking about. You just like seeing oversexed women all over the place, and don't care that it doesn't make any sense from a practical standpoint. You're certainly entitled to that view. But as I said earlier, there are a bunch of us out there who find it obnoxious and distracting to see women shoehorned into that supersexy role when it makes no sense. We like our women to seem like real people, not just eye candy.

[Azriel]

In life there are women who are sexy, show it off, and use it too their advantage. Whats wrong with representing them in the game?

I'm pretty sure the sort of person who asks this question is not the sort of person who will understand the answer, but the answer is objectification. You want women to exist as eye candy for you. You want a game that sends the message that men are tough and competent and get stuff done with their strength and intellect, but women's only asset is their sexiness (and men have no corresponding sex appeal). You don't care that it makes the game less fun for other people.

TL;DR: You are demanding that the game revolve entirely around your own personal preferences even if that ruins the game for others.

Ah, politically correct activist. Look, nobody is asking for all women or most, or even too common to be like this, but it would be nice to have it in the game occasionaly. I will not be surprised if you also don't want any kind of racism in the game because it will offend someone, or have killable children, or drug use, or anything else that might offend someone. Sorry, but there are more than enough politically correct games out there. I want a game that covers the spectrum of humans, good and bad. Don't limit the game to your politically correct vision. Let me throw your own words right back at you "You are demanding that the game revolve entirely around your own personal preferences even if that ruins the game for others.".

[katz]

You think the game should contain racism? Seriously?

[TΛPETRVE]

You think the game should contain racism? Seriously?

You don't read over this board much, do you ?

Escapism vs. Racism

On interracial violence and racial slurs

[Equidistant]

Ah, politically correct activist.

I doubt it. I suspect katz's opinions are close to my own.

I don't give two shits if the game contains racism, sexism, drug use, prostitution, or killing of children. I don't give a damn if it contains gore or graphic nudity, though that would certainly limit the potential audience, so it's probably a bad idea.

All I want is a little suspension of disbelief. When I see women in video games running around in outfits that would give them no protection against melanoma or breaking their own ankle, let alone the kind of physical challenges they are supposedly facing in the game, it breaks me out of the game. I'm thinking "there's no way she would wear that" instead of "so she wants me to kill this dude over the ridge who seems to have done nothing wrong, what's the backstory?"

[katz]

In-character racism, sure, but we were talking about gender in game design, not the gender-related opinions of the characters (which are irrelevant to the issue of fanservice anyway).

[suz]

Fallout 2 may have referenced sexual material, but there weren't close-ups of women in hypersexual outfits. Check out the example section - fan service refers to your Lara Crofts, your Bayonettas, even your Cortanas (at least in Halo 2 & 3). Not to the presence of a pixellated madam or some

WL2 is going to have the camera EVEN HIGHER than FO2 had. How do you intend to see "hypersexual outfits" in closeups? In games like these fan service is all about witty dialogues, vaguely-direct hints and strategic fade to blacks.

To be honest, though, I have a feeling that you know exactly what we're talking about. You just like seeing oversexed women all over the place, and don't care that it doesn't make any sense from a practical standpoint.

It doesn't make sense for every woman to be a man with long hair either.

You're certainly entitled to that view. But as I said earlier, there are a bunch of us out there who find it obnoxious and distracting to see women shoehorned into that supersexy role when it makes no sense. We like our women to seem like real people, not just eye candy.

"We" can express their opinion here, as can I. I like women different. "Scantily clad" women have their place in the world and I gave a few examples earlier for when that makes sense.

[cah]

In games like these fan service is all about witty dialogues, vaguely-direct hints and strategic fade to blacks.

It's not fan service. Have you actually read the page from tvtropes that you quoted?