No insta-healing items

[mechanus]

It's really hard for a party to lose a guy with Wasteland's health system. Enhancing the medic/doctor skill through a skill modifier item in inventory is good.

Even with that structure, you could use a stimpak approach towards healing above UNC. If you want immersion, it can be based on nano-technology and not a "potion". Or a cocktail of super-coaglating agents. Immersion isn't either to do a quick battle, retreat around the corner to heal, move to the next room. Fighting isn't silent by a long shot, and retreating out of the building/cave/town 50 feet isn't going to get you healed any quicker (or any "more real" - whatever that means).

Personally, I'm on the fence. I like the idea of making hard choices, but not to the point where it's frustrating. I think a balance can be struck between the two models. I agree that using stimpaks or healing agents or whatever with impunity breaks not only immersion but also the spirit, I think. If stimpaks, healing agents, or whatever are employed, there should be a consequence - minimally a cool down period (to use a common term), where you can't use another one because of some dire consequence (stimpaks, for example, would contain adrenaline - take one too many, die of a heart attack; super-coaglating agents would potentially create thicker blood, making it harder to pump, die of a heart attack; take too many nanorobot injectors, body goes into shock). Long term use for stimpaks, for example, being the most common could easily be addiction. The "cool down" periods could vary based on what they're based on. You could use stimpaks more frequently, but they obviously heal for a lot less - making them only marginally effective. Super-coaglating agents would have a much longer time-between-use factor, but stop bleeding wounds and gives some extra health. Obviously more rare/expensive than stimpaks. Nano-tech? Well, lets say they give a nice perk of being able to slowly repair wounds over time (not an instant-get-your-health-back-ticket) but your body needs more time to process them out.

It can be a balanced approach. You can decide if you want them as an inventory item that gives a perk or if they're a one use item, or if they're crafted items (I can only imagine that stimpaks would be the only ones to be manufactured in any kind of quantity).

[Zombra]

It sounds like most people's problem is not with insta-healing, but unlimited insta-healing.

No, I'm against it period.

As am I. Insta-healing sucks. It would not have been difficult at all for healing potions to have been a part of the original Wasteland; they left them out for a good reason. What we had instead was infinitely more interesting. The only problem was pressing ESC a million times. That and the fact that medical skills had no bearing on recovery speed. Have a "rest for 8 hours" button, or even a "rest until healed" button, and allow Medic/Doctor checks to speed the process, and we're golden.

[tuluse]

I did write "most" not "all." It just seemed like most of the complaints were about the Fallout system being too easy to exploit.

I would like some kind of healing/medic skill to take place during combat. I just like the imagery of a squadmate pulling his/her friend out of the line of fire, patching him up, and then he gets back into it.

[Zombra]

I did write "most" not "all." It just seemed like most of the complaints were about the Fallout system being too easy to exploit.

I dig ya. My concern isn't so much about exploitability as it is about atmosphere. Wasteland took a brave departure from RPG "healing potion" tradition and it made the game very distinct (among a thousand other reasons, of course!) Then Fallout went, eh, let's bring back healing potions. I look back very fondly on Wasteland's courageous take and associate it with the franchise's identity.

I would like some kind of healing/medic skill to take place during combat. I just like the imagery of a squadmate pulling his/her friend out of the line of fire, patching him up, and then he gets back into it.

If I remember right, in Wasteland, with Medic or Doctor skill, you actually could rush to the side of a fallen comrade and upgrade their condition mid-battle. SER characters could be upgraded to UNC for example. Don't remember if you could actually bring them back into the fight. I think you could!

I also like the tough but fair way the Jagged Alliance series handles injury and combat healing. That wouldn't seem out of place to me at all. I believe somebody else already described it upthread.

[Imbunche]

I agree. I liked that hardcore mode in Fallout: New Vegas made it so that stimpacks were a gradual heal thing, and that you couldn't benefit from a super-stimpack for a while after taking one. I think there's also a place for something like a painkiller or adrenaline shot or something so that you "heal" the damage you've taken during combat, but that healing goes away after combat, requiring like, actual first aid or doctoring or something like.

I like this actually.

- I tried brink and they had a similar mechanic with painkiller like drug even though it was a flop. -

I think the drug would add health to you but would only last as long as enemies were present, and your adrenaline would go down. Like a "buffer" shield to health of a sort.

[Hasenklein]

The original Wasteland did not have magical instant healing.

And I worked around it by running around until the party was fully healed. So the main effect of this feature is that I spend my time with something totally boring (which is a pretty awkward reading of "Wasteland"). Instant healing may be unrealistic, but it clearly improves gameplay.

I'd like to see other ingame solutions. But I do not want to be forced to waste my time with running around for no other purpose but to let the party heal.

[Fed]

I don't think "rest until healed" brings more realism than insta-healing.

At least if it does not come with time-limited quests (all of them, not just a couple; which are not a good thing imo) or the world that evolves and goes on it's business no matter what you do (and I don't think this would be a core feature of WL2).

So I (I mean my party) come to a town. A mayor is captured by raiders and kept in the town hall.
I rush to the town hall, kill some raiders. I'm wounded. I get out, find a place to spend some hours healing. Then I come back to the town hall, kill some more raiders... And understand - I'm not ready. I retreat, heal for several hours and... head to the wasteland to get my skills up.
I fight, heal, fight, heal... And again, and again, and again...
Several weeks later I come back to try and fight my way through the town hall again. Several more days fighting raiders and resting between the fights I get to the raiders' leader...
Who absolutely didn't see it coming.
(even without the need to get the skills up it might take several days or even weeks)

Many of you guys (and gals) don't like the idea of being Chosen Ones. Do you really-really feel ok with the world holding it's breath and waiting until your party heals?

I think fast healing (10-20 minutes) would be a lesser evil in this case. Not fast enough to be combat breaking, but fast enough so the world does not have to wait untill you heal (wich is more unrealistic than insta-healing imo).

[Mandemon]

Or maybe you might lack insta-heals in combat, but outside combat there could be items that heal you considerably? So you don't magically heal bullet wound while in combat, but once outside it you can heal yourself back to fighting condition without wasting days or weeks in-game time?

[TΛPETRVE]

How about throwing in something like adrenaline shots, that don't "heal" you, but merely keep you conscious, so you might still be able to fire off lucky shots even from an incapacitated position?

[Hasenklein]

I think the major problem with instant healing is that it doesn't come up with a price.

That means usually, instant healing leads to a grant in the form of immediately regenerated hitpoints, and doesn't have any side effects.

This issue could be countered by introducing side effects of instant healing items.

Life is borrowed. It's no eternal grant. In the wastelands, that should be a simple a truth that is apparent to guys like rangers who are confronted with death quite often. In other words, there is nothing like a free lunch.

If the amount of HP that is instantly healed (ih) exceeds a certain value in a certain amoung of time, the character dies, or suffers mutation, illness, or other disadvantages. The amount of HP leading to such an event could were off over time (friendly version of this feature), or story progression (so temporary negative effects cannot be countered simply by running around), or it doesn't (not so friendly version of this feature). This way, ih items may remove the danger of immediate death, but increase the danger if dying from future usage of ih items. The point is to find an internal restriction to the unlimited usage of instant healing items.

People may be afraid to loose their beloved characters, much more as the characters themselves are afraid of death. The solution is to offer the player a little reward for a dead character, depending on his experience, that translates to the new character that follows the dead character.

Such a reward could be unique skill, higher max stats or something else. The point is to make death more an integral part of the game instead of just a punishment. It's the reversion of the "no free lunch" principle: if you pay something, you'll get something in return.

[Mandemon]

More like more player uses IH items, more likely he is to become addicted to them, requiring player to use them in regular and shortening intervals to prevent HP loss. Abstaining from the use reduces this chance, but once addiction is gained, it permanently increases the likely hood to regain addiction in case player can fight it off.

[Fed]

More like more player uses IH items, more likely he is to become addicted to them, requiring player to use them in regular and shortening intervals to prevent HP loss. Abstaining from the use reduces this chance, but once addiction is gained, it permanently increases the likely hood to regain addiction in case player can fight it off.

Leads to save-scum in case of gaining addiction, imo.
Or do you mean a constant - not a chance - use 100 stimpacks and gain addiction?

[Mandemon]

Increased chance per use, minus the time between shots.

So 1st shot: 10%
2nd: 15%
3rd: 20%
Wait sometime, like few in-game days
4th: 14%
5TH: 19%

And so on.

As for same scumming, you can't really do anything about it. Except save seeds, so that repeating actions gives same result always.

[Woolfe]

More like more player uses IH items, more likely he is to become addicted to them, requiring player to use them in regular and shortening intervals to prevent HP loss. Abstaining from the use reduces this chance, but once addiction is gained, it permanently increases the likely hood to regain addiction in case player can fight it off.

Leads to save-scum in case of gaining addiction, imo.
Or do you mean a constant - not a chance - use 100 stimpacks and gain addiction?

Ignore Save scumming. People who do that will do it no matter what. That is there loss, so just ignore it. Don't allow it to factor into the equation.

[Zombra]

Ignore Save scumming. People who do that will do it no matter what. That is there loss, so just ignore it. Don't allow it to factor into the equation.

As for same scumming, you can't really do anything about it.

Totally disagree, guys. Ignoring the meta systems while designing the main game (or vice versa) is a very bad idea. It needs to be one cohesive system.

Except save seeds, so that repeating actions gives same result always.

Now you're talking!

[Hiver]

Ordinary healing items should heal slowly, over time - and have negative side effects.
The first Witcher had a great and simple mechanic - toxicity.

Use the same.

The rare items that provide instantaneous healing should cause greater toxicity.

Also, dont call it toxicity. Invent a Wasteland 2 appropriate name.

[Mandemon]

Except save seeds, so that repeating actions gives same result always.

Now you're talking!

That's pretty much only way to do it. I can't think any other way to do it and this only works for "random" rolls.

[Woolfe]

Except save seeds, so that repeating actions gives same result always.

Now you're talking!

That's pretty much only way to do it. I can't think any other way to do it and this only works for "random" rolls.

I can guarantee you that the people who save-scum will get around this.

Seriously don't let it affect your thinking, the problem with that is that you then start to modify the core approach based on the assumption that people will save scum. But then that makes your approach inherently flawed when someone who doesn't save scum comes along.

So when designing the mechanics, ignore save scumming. Then look at the problem of save scumming as a separate thing.

Sorry, don't want to derail the thread, especially as there is already a thread about save scumming.

[Zombra]

Except save seeds, so that repeating actions gives same result always.

I can guarantee you that the people who save-scum will get around this.

Seriously don't let it affect your thinking, the problem with that is that you then start to modify the core approach based on the assumption that people will save scum. But then that makes your approach inherently flawed when someone who doesn't save scum comes along.

So when designing the mechanics, ignore save scumming. Then look at the problem of save scumming as a separate thing.

Strongly disagree. I myself save scum, because it is incredibly convenient. About to pick a lock? Save first. Didn't succeed? Reload and try again. Quickload is right there. It's part of gameplay.

However I'm not going to go to elaborate lengths to hack the game. If the game is built ground-up so that quickload save scumming is blocked, then I'm simply going to stop doing that. I'm not a leet hacker, I'm just a normal player who likes to succeed; so if you put a tool right in my hand to erase a failed roll, I will use it. If you put the tool on a high shelf covered with barbed wire, some people will still use it, but I think that typical players won't.

Please, please, please design the game systems and the metagame systems with a single coherent vision.

[Woolfe]

Except save seeds, so that repeating actions gives same result always.

I can guarantee you that the people who save-scum will get around this.

Seriously don't let it affect your thinking, the problem with that is that you then start to modify the core approach based on the assumption that people will save scum. But then that makes your approach inherently flawed when someone who doesn't save scum comes along.

So when designing the mechanics, ignore save scumming. Then look at the problem of save scumming as a separate thing.

Strongly disagree. I myself save scum, because it is incredibly convenient. About to pick a lock? Save first. Didn't succeed? Reload and try again. Quickload is right there. It's part of gameplay.

However I'm not going to go to elaborate lengths to hack the game. If the game is built ground-up so that quickload save scumming is blocked, then I'm simply going to stop doing that. I'm not a leet hacker, I'm just a normal player who likes to succeed; so if you put a tool right in my hand to erase a failed roll, I will use it. If you put the tool on a high shelf covered with barbed wire, some people will still use it, but I think that typical players won't.

Please, please, please design the game systems and the metagame systems with a single coherent vision.

Have some willpower man

But your last line I agree with. So look at it from the whole game, in a consistent manner. Don't let it affect each and every little game mechanic. Build that mechanic for the purpose it was meant. Save scumming is a different issue (which has laready been decided on).