Towns killing you from stealing or hitting someone.

[Gabriel77Dan]

If there is one thing I loathe in the older RPG's it's that I feel so unsecure in places with the kill on sight mentality NPC's can get from tiny things.

I would like Wasteland 2 to avoid this.

In Fallout New Vegas, if I pickpocket an NPC and fail then they just take the item back and I might get a reputation drop.
I think that was a bit mellow but it's miles above Fallout 3 where IIRC (IIRC since it's been perhaps 2 years since I played it) everyone in Megaton went apeshit on me for failing a pickpocket atempt.

And I have not personally played or heard of an RPG where I can engage in a fist fight with someone and everyone else leaves us be or cheer on us.

So basically, do not make entire towns, outposts, gang hideouts, cities and settlements go kill crazy for one little choice.
If we kill someone, in the open, and people can see or hear the murder, then yeah, being chased out of town makes sense.
But I do not want to be turned into target practice for failing to steal a bottle of rum.

And I want Pugilism to be able to be used for pacifistic combat in civilized areas. Someone doesn't want to give me information? Then I can beat the information out of them.
The rest of the town is not going to like it and whatever guards they have are going to want to have a talk with your party.
But they aren't going to shoot the living shit out of you.

Like I said, if we murder someone and another NPC sees or hears it then it's fine to have the entire place go ballistic.
But if we just steal something or fist-fight someone on equal terms then I don't want that hefty consequence.
A consequence should still be there for failing to steal something, but it shouldn't be as excessive as it's been in older games.

And I do not want the "Fallout 3 amnesia" design for NPCs, where one day I can murder half of Rivet City and after 3 days they're cool with me again.

[TheEmissary]

A kind of related topic. They should also stop NPC from being psychic about crimes in other towns. In a post apocalyptic world most towns probably don't have working telephone network or may not even be on speaking terms. I can see a NPC merchant/courier/messenger passing news to different towns but it shouldn't be instant. Reputation and crimes should be localized to a certain point.

And I have not personally played or heard of an RPG where I can engage in a fist fight with someone and everyone else leaves us be or cheer on us.

I seen this in Skyrim and The Witcher.

[paultakeda]

I would say that the Kickstarter video alludes to this.

[Gabriel77Dan]

A kind of related topic. They should also stop NPC from being psychic about crimes in other towns. In a post apocalyptic world most towns probably don't have working telephone network or may not even be on speaking terms. I can see a NPC merchant/courier/messenger passing news to different towns but it shouldn't be instant. Reputation and crimes should be localized to a certain point.

And I have not personally played or heard of an RPG where I can engage in a fist fight with someone and everyone else leaves us be or cheer on us.

I seen this in Skyrim and The Witcher.

I said in an RPG.
Don't know anything about Witcher though, never been that interested in it for some reason.

[jackass00]

I said in an RPG.

Dude, the fact that it is not isometric and turn based does not mean it is not an RPG.

[Proton Axeman]

It depends on how paranoid and/or fascist the town leaders are. I can definitely see the possibility that some towns would have extremely draconian policies, *especially* where unknown strangers are concerned, in a setting where life isn't ever easy, weapons are common, and where they can't exactly just Google your name to find out what you may or may not have done before. A Little Bill-like character making harsh use of force to preserve order is quite plausible.

[Gabriel77Dan]

I said in an RPG.

Dude, the fact that it is not isometric and turn based does not mean it is not an RPG.

No, but the fact that it barely has any choices, no consequences, allows you to do everything, allows you to join everyone, gives you no branching dialogue but a pathetic improvement upon the topic dialogue from Oblivion among other things, makes it not an RPG.

It's an action/adventure dungeon crawler with some RPG elements.
Not a Role-Playing Game.
If Skyrim is an RPG then so is Saints Row 2.


[edit]


Proton Axeman, Well sure, some towns could use this. What I mean was that I don't want 'every' place to follow the "You steal a fork and we shoot you dead!"-wasteland justice.

[stonetoes]

I said in an RPG.

Hah, I was about to deploy a rolleyes at you for derailing the thread, then I realised you were the OP. De-rail away!

On-topic, I think if permanent/long-term injuries are brought in this could be an option. Sure, they may not kill you for stealing, but they might cut your hand off or break your fingers. Maybe they just kick the shit out of you till you go unconscious, then keep going. How much AI would it take to tell a town guard to target the character's arm till it's crippled then stop, only engaging in combat if the player fights back?

Or maybe it's done through scripted dialogue choices. How would you react when your master sniper McPedro is seen shooting somebody, the sheriff says "We're gonna' take the first two fingers of each hand. You won't be doin' no more shootin'!" and your options are:
1. [let him take McPedro the sniper's fingers]
2. [start combat with the whole town]
3. [grovel for mercy in the dirt]

When one of your members has both legs broken for stealing a pig, do you wait around a couple of months for him to heal, go on without him or put a bullet in his head like a lame horse?

I think the difficult part is going to be how all this would work with a party-based game. Is justice going to be targetted only at the offending individual, or at the whole team? Will guards only start combat with one person and leave you alone when that team-mate is dead? I'm not sure I've ever seen that done.

[Gabriel77Dan]

I said in an RPG.

Hah, I was about to deploy a rolleyes at you for derailing the thread, then I realised you were the OP. De-rail away!

On-topic, I think if permanent/long-term injuries are brought in this could be an option. Sure, they may not kill you for stealing, but they might cut your hand off or break your fingers. Maybe they just kick the shit out of you till you go unconscious, then keep going. How much AI would it take to tell a town guard to target the character's arm till it's crippled then stop, only engaging in combat if the player fights back?

Or maybe it's done through scripted dialogue choices. How would you react when your master sniper McPedro is seen shooting somebody, the sheriff says "We're gonna' take the first two fingers of each hand. You won't be doin' no more shootin'!" and your options are:
1. [let him take McPedro the sniper's fingers]
2. [start combat with the whole town]
3. [grovel for mercy in the dirt]

When one of your members has both legs broken for stealing a pig, do you wait around a couple of months for him to heal, go on without him or put a bullet in his head like a lame horse?

I think the difficult part is going to be how all this would work with a party-based game. Is justice going to be targetted only at the offending individual, or at the whole team? Will guards only start combat with one person and leave you alone when that team-mate is dead? I'm not sure I've ever seen that done.

Hmmm, could make Cyborg Tech a really valuable skill with amputations like that.
I think it definitely could be a way to design one or two towns but again, if every town acts like this then it'd just feel ridiculous.

I think it'd be best for the law to kick in for whoever did the crime, it'd be annoying to have every member of the crew get sent to jail or get a hand cut off.

Jailtime for the party member who did the crime could work well for civilized areas.
The person who did the crime is locked up for X amount of ingame time and then you have the option of bailing him out.
You can of course just wait until he/she/it gets out but it could be a while.

I also think the royal beatdown could work well too, entire party is beat down until unconsceous then all your money is taken and you wake up one the world map outside of the town.

Other ways could also be anarchy, each person takes the law into their own hands. The entire town won't attack you for stealing some shotgun ammo but the husband and wife who you stole from will demand you give it back and if you refuse hold you at gunpoint.

I think there are a lot of good ways to make each town have their own kind of law.
But having an entire town go after me for stealing a roll of paper is something I'm sick and tired off.

[stonetoes]

Jailtime for the party member who did the crime could work well for civilized areas.
The person who did the crime is locked up for X amount of ingame time and then you have the option of bailing him out.
You can of course just wait until he/she/it gets out but it could be a while.
...
Other ways could also be anarchy, each person takes the law into their own hands. The entire town won't attack you for stealing some shotgun ammo but the husband and wife who you stole from will demand you give it back and if you refuse hold you at gunpoint.

I like these ideas. In a party-based game, short-term jail time has more utility than in a single player game where it's pretty much just "fast forward time till you're out". Again, you'd have to decide whether to simply carry on without them or hang around wasting time and money.

Additionally you could have penalties like stats/experience degrading the longer you're in, guards stealing your stuff, having to pay bribes.

[Gabriel77Dan]

Additionally you could have penalties like stats/experience degrading the longer you're in, guards stealing your stuff, having to pay bribes.

I suppose a decrease in Maxcon for a couple of ingame days could work (only getting a piece of bread and a glass of water each day oughta drag the energy out of your body, need some time to recoperate(?)) but preferrably not The Elder Scrolls' way of "Oh you went to jail? Well, we'll reduce your speechcraft skill for that" cause I never thought that made any sense and it was mildy annoying having to level up the skills you lost.

Though guards stealing stuff would be great, take 1/3 of all money and ammo the character has on him.
And if you call the guards out on it they might become... Defensive...

Paying bribes would be awesome, we definitely need more ways to spend money in RPG's so that we can try to avoid the whole 999.999 cash problem by the end of the game like usual in RPGs.

[stonetoes]

it was mildy annoying having to level up the skills you lost.

Yeah, skills degrading faster than they upgrade is a pet peeve of mine. Not sure why I suggested the idea actually. It all depends how character advancement is handled. One solution is to remove progress towards the next level (of experience or skill), but not the level itself. So you remove the progress, but nothing is actually downgraded. Either that or have a temporary penalty as you reaccustomise yourself to life on the outside.

A "jail bird" or "ex-con" perk/trait/background would be a cool way to avoid some of these penalties too.

Paying bribes would be awesome, we definitely need more ways to spend money in RPG's so that we can try to avoid the whole 999.999 cash problem by the end of the game like usual in RPGs.

Agreed, probably an issue that deserves its own thread though.

[Internalprimate]

I think that depending on the town and the local law enforcement that consequences could be punishable through local law enforcment. But for the most part in small towns or certain factions the whole place vs the Pc is a mechanic based in reality.
lets think about a post apoc community. If your caught stealing then 1. You betrayed trust 2. You piss off the items owner. And guess whose side the community is going to take when the argument goes to fists( or guns)

[Woolfe]

What I would like to see is that every level of society will treat you differently.

So you are in the Ranger Center, and you pick pocket someone and get caught. You are thrown in jail and tried with appropriate punishment. You are forever branded with being a pickpocket in the Ranger center and its affiliates.

You are in a hive of Scum and Villainy. You pickpocket and get caught. Guy tries to kill you, his mates join in. Afterwards, no one cares, or you mihgt have a bit more respect if you managed to beat them all.

You are in a small community. You pickpocket and get caught. They rough you up a little and kick you out of town. Afterwards, the town treats you with suspicion, rumour gets out to other nearby towns, but no definate hey it was him.

And everything in between.

[Suttonmitchell]

I couldn't agree more with this! I feel nervous about everything I do in the Hub with all those guards watching me..Although if I had a group of rangers (in the town), I don't think they would fuck with us.

[Clockwork Knight]

I think that depending on the town and the local law enforcement that consequences could be punishable through local law enforcment. But for the most part in small towns or certain factions the whole place vs the Pc is a mechanic based in reality.
lets think about a post apoc community. If your caught stealing then 1. You betrayed trust 2. You piss off the items owner. And guess whose side the community is going to take when the argument goes to fists( or guns)

.

Most people would just hide or run away from a fight. Perhaps they would help the guy if they think the aggressor is harmless enough ( then again, this is a post-apocalyptic society, where everyone carries some kind of weapon, even if it's a kitchen knife).

It's one thing to have the entire town become hostile towards you in one form or another (refusing service, insulting you, etc); it's another to have everyone actually attack you, eager to jump in front of your bullets because you pissed off their bro.

[Internalprimate]

Good point op. But I think that were looking at a scenario to emulate reality. Not to be a convenient device to keep your self from reloading the game when when you fail a steal check. If the suttee then community structure in a lot of places would hold some semblance to pre industrial America. People would nt be likely tolersre a their. And f said their survived being (apprehended) it is certain the best they could hope for would be banishment. So for simple ease I think that you should reasonably expect the towns wrath when you get caught. But I do beleice I remember a few places in fallout 1 or 2 where you Kay get a warning for trying to snoopy. Or steal. Some ppaxes that could be ok. But as a representative of the rangers I think getting caught for stealing is bad for business. And lets race it. In the western wastes there is no difficulty in finding enemies and making more would be bad for ranger business. So I think we should assume that getting caught stealing is a no no that at best should get the ranters kicked out of town for a while

[Internalprimate]

Btw I appologize for bad typos it is very hard typing on a tablet

[stonetoes]

Banishment, either permanent or until you've increased your reputation (or some other factor) seems like a good idea. I can imagine the whole town turning on you, but more in the sense of a posse turning up and saying "get out of town before we make you", than an immediate free-for-all.

This would also give you the option to sneak back in later if there were things you still wanted to do, rather than having to massacre everyone because you left your rocket launcher stashed in a trashcan and don't want to leave it behind. Hell, maybe they'll have a disguise skill for getting around this, which isn't much use if you have to murder everyone as soon as your reputation turns to "hated".

[Woolfe]

<snip>

.

Most people would just hide or run away from a fight. Perhaps they would help the guy if they think the aggressor is harmless enough ( then again, this is a post-apocalyptic society, where everyone carries some kind of weapon, even if it's a kitchen knife).

It's one thing to have the entire town become hostile towards you in one form or another (refusing service, insulting you, etc); it's another to have everyone actually attack you, eager to jump in front of your bullets because you pissed off their bro.

I actually thought the opposite. These towns have survived against the bandits and mutants out there. They must of done so by banding together and defending what they got. It wouldn't be unreasonable for some townships to trust other members of the town over strangers. So suddenly everyone has a gun pointing at you, and you have to do some quick explaining.