Don't make it possible to finish the game in 10 minutes

[BlackGauntlet]

That said, a new player would never know how to finish Fallout 1 & 2 (or any rpg, for that matter) in minutes, I don't really see the point of this thread.

This. Pointless thread really. Only way to make a game to be impossible to do speed runs is to make it freaking linear.

[Emmy Lou]

Only way to make a game to be impossible to do speed runs is to make it freaking linear.

Well, that's not entirely true. Like I said, I'm not opposed to speed runs, and you've articulated why people enjoy them quite well in this thread, which I thank you for, because the mindset is a bit foreign to me However, I think a game could be expanded and possibly made impossible to speedrun without being made into an "on-rails" game where you must do what the developers imagined. Like, perhaps at one point whatever it is that one must do to complete the game doesn't even exist in the world and something is either created or arrives later on in the game. Maybe you find out an army is marching from the north and it's up to you to save the Wastes (Or tell everyone to screw off, or even try and join the invading force. Just using this "invasion scenario" as an example, here). I don't think this idea of the game having "phases" is "making it linear". The only thing linear about it is time which I believe has been linear since the start of it. In fact, I'm fairly certain something like this would do a lot to emphasize the "changing world" a lot of us call for, where the RPG doesn't entirely feel like it's waiting for the PCs to arrive before things start to happen.

However, I guess unless there was an arbitrary timer on it like the Waterchip deadline in FO1 which doesn't seem to be a popular idea as it limits your playtime in the sandbox, then these "phases" would probably be activated by events the PCs trigger and a speedrun would still be possible, but perhaps not in the ~20 minutes other RPGs allow.

Like I said in my post's forward, I'm not really trying to argue against speedruns here, simply saying that the idea of the game not being completable in the beginning doesn't necessarily mean it's linear.

[CaptainPatch]

Well, it seems that the speed-runners are deliberately using a "tool" for a a purpose other than what it was designed to do. That is, _minimum_ time was never intended to be a priority of the designers. Requests about _minimum_ time of completion therefore fall into "These requests can be Ignored" file. Matters of shortest completion time possible are irrelevant. The function of a game such as this is to provide activities while telling a story. Speed-runners are essentially reading the Index and then proclaiming "DONE!"

[ApesAmongUs]

Hello !

I'm a huge fan of the original Fallout games (1+2).
But each of those games could be finished under 10 minutes IF you know what to do, that's kinda bad in my opinion.

Please do not maybe it possible to finish the game that fast. ( and no, not even 20 or 40 minutes ).

The fact that someone finished FO1 in 20 minutes when it took me over 100 hours to play that game is still among one of the major reasons I classify that as the best game I have ever played. Kill everything/kill nothing - fine. Rush through/explore every nook and cranny - still fine.

Nothing says replayability like getting as close as possible to absolute freedom of choice in how to complete the game.

[Emmy Lou]

Speed-runners are essentially reading the Index and then proclaiming "DONE!"

It still sounds a bit like you aren't even reading BlackGauntlet's posts though

Speedrunning is something you do after you've experienced that game's "activities and story" so thoroughly that you know it in-and-out and can calibrate the perfect way to finish it like a race (Racing is a good analogy, whomever brought it up).

Saying "it's like reading the book index" is a bit like when people criticise NASCAR drivers for "just driving in circles". A lot of precision, control, endurance and thought probably goes into riding hundreds of boxes made of metal inches away from each other hundreds of times at 200+ MPH. As someone who has sat in the driver's seat for hours on roadtrips, I know I wouldn't want to do it. And the same goes for Speedrunning, where the player enjoys putting in the research, tests and trials all to shave off those "few seconds". If you think speedrunningseems so easy, I'd like to see you beat a game you've played in under 20 minutes without slipping up.


(As a disclaimer, I in no way enjoy NASCAR myself. As an environmentalist, I find the spectacle grossly wasteful and as a spectator sport, I agree with the "driving in circles" critique and would rather watch a professional paint drying league. But to discount the skill that goes into the act is kind of an insult to their dumb sport. It does act as a good "racing" analogy)

[Azriel]

I prefer no artificial barriers, I think in the original fallout you could get the most powerful power armor in the game if you KNEW where to look or got really lucky in discovering it. You could also go directly to the big bad I think and take it on, but the NPC's where insanely powerful at that point which was a good motivator to avoid the area. Allow it, but it should only be there if you KNOW how to do it, the natural high level dangers should keep you away from areas you should not be at.

[Drool]

The function of a game such as this is to provide activities while telling a story. Speed-runners are essentially reading the Index and then proclaiming "DONE!"

No. No it is not. Not in the slightest. Speedrunning is, after having read the book 100 times and literally memorizing every single word, you then sit down and spend months writing the Cliff's Notes version of it.

Have you ever played a game more than once? More than ten times? More than one hundred times? Do you read every single description of every little item every single time?

[CaptainPatch]

Just stepping back from the issue, what I see is: A game is made. It's function is to entertain. The methodology of that entertainment is ___________. The designers build the game to provide a "full-bodied" experience. Whatever the game, there will be a "absolute shortest time to completion potential". IT IS WHAT IT IS. It may be 5 minutes; it may be 5 hours. It doesn't matter, because shortest time possible was NOT an objective of the design. Nor should it be. We have consumers using a product in a manner that was not intended by the makers. It is the consumers prerogative to do with their property what they will. But legally speaking, a manufacturer is not bound by a use of the product that is outside of the stated purpose of that product.

So, in the end, it doesn't matter if a speed-runner wants a game to have a longer minimum run duration. He may just as well request that every copy of the game be required to be packed with a $50 bill enclosed. It's NOT a production criteria; it need not even be contemplated.

[ffordesoon]

@CaptainPatch:

Who are you arguing against? Yourself?

[Emmy Lou]

To be fair to Mr. SetonHall there, his argument of "it need not be contemplated" could be used in damn near any part of the forum right now, as all we have to debate on is experiences with Wasteland 1, Fallout, other old cRPGs and recent Brian Fargo interviews at the moment. While this line of thinking could also be used against him as well, the fact is, every one of us here is just crying out our hopes dreams into the heavens in hope that someone like Brother None or anyone else connected to inXile might read it and go "hey, that's a good point, I'll pass it on". For good or ill or null, we're all crying into thin air with hope what we say somehow weighs in on the final product. Debate is good, but for the most part our words are mere meme skirmishes as we try to influence this small but vocal part of the fanbase towards each of our own point of views in the contest to get the best game possible by mob fiat.

The smallest idea, even a part of a sentence, could change a person's mind, and who knows where that mindvirus might transmit to?

[CaptainPatch]

@CaptainPatch:

Who are you arguing against? Yourself?

Hello !

I'm a huge fan of the original Fallout games (1+2).
But each of those games could be finished under 10 minutes IF you know what to do, that's kinda bad in my opinion.

Please do not maybe it possible to finish the game that fast. ( and no, not even 20 or 40 minutes ).

[ffordesoon]

@CaptainPatch:

Oh.

Well, I mean, you're welcome to argue with him/her, but it seems a bit pointless, since literally every other post in this thread has refuted the OP. You're also presuming an awful lot about the OP by even saying he or she is a speedrunner. It read to me like he or she just heard "It's possible to finish Fallout in ten minutes if you know what to do!" and took it to mean that speedrunning it is easy. Or it could have been a trollpost. It read a little like one. It's one of the two, I know that.

Either way, getting bent out of shape over the game allowing for the possibility of speedrunning is, I think, rather silly.

[Punky]

Yeah let me weigh in and say I do NOT care if the game is speedrun-able.

[BlackGauntlet]

@CaptainPatch:

Who are you arguing against? Yourself?

Hello !

I'm a huge fan of the original Fallout games (1+2).
But each of those games could be finished under 10 minutes IF you know what to do, that's kinda bad in my opinion.

Please do not maybe it possible to finish the game that fast. ( and no, not even 20 or 40 minutes ).

Y'know, just to irk you, I'll Speed-Run Wasteland 2 too! :p

But of course, after I've enjoyed more than 100s of hours of it first to take in every little detail of the game.

[Mandemon]

Yeah I see no reason to present any arguments anymore, whole point of OP has been refuted by everyone else.

If you do a speed run, you do it for challenge. You don't do it because you just want to get game over quickly on your first run.

Honestly, has anyone ever done speed run version of Fallout 1 on his/her first play trough? Has anyone sat down, first time playing Fallout without any knowledge of what game contains, no plans, complete noob and completed the game in 9 minutes? Or has all these speed runs done by people who have basically cut the game to it's most basic form, to pure math and sought the most optimal way to achieve objective X?

[BlackGauntlet]

Yeah I see no reason to present any arguments anymore, whole point of OP has been refuted by everyone else.

If you do a speed run, you do it for challenge. You don't do it because you just want to get game over quickly on your first run.

Honestly, has anyone ever done speed run version of Fallout 1 on his/her first play trough? Has anyone sat down, first time playing Fallout without any knowledge of what game contains, no plans, complete noob and completed the game in 9 minutes? Or has all these speed runs done by people who have basically cut the game to it's most basic form, to pure math and sought the most optimal way to achieve objective X?

Captain Patch seems to believe EVERYONE could do it.

[Ekaros]

Yeah I see no reason to present any arguments anymore, whole point of OP has been refuted by everyone else.

If you do a speed run, you do it for challenge. You don't do it because you just want to get game over quickly on your first run.

Honestly, has anyone ever done speed run version of Fallout 1 on his/her first play trough? Has anyone sat down, first time playing Fallout without any knowledge of what game contains, no plans, complete noob and completed the game in 9 minutes? Or has all these speed runs done by people who have basically cut the game to it's most basic form, to pure math and sought the most optimal way to achieve objective X?

Captain Patch seems to believe EVERYONE could do it.

Almost everyone could, but 99% won't. And then there is those who enjoy seeing it done.

Wasteland is open-ended game and as such speed-runs don't tell much about the game or it's length.

[BlackGauntlet]

Almost everyone could, but 99% won't. And then there is those who enjoy seeing it done.

Wasteland is open-ended game and as such speed-runs don't tell much about the game or it's length.

We are talking about a Speed Run on the 1st attempt.

I'll take it that you're one of the 99%? I'll admit I'm that 1% who couldn't.

Please do record your exploit on Youtube. We'll expect it on the 2nd day of game release.

[Gizmo]

See... I would actually be appreciating it if my PC lucked out and completed the game on fluke luck alone; though that's high unlikely to ever occur. Yet if when I get to the end of a game I can see that my PC could have done things a certain way and finished it immediately... It's a real let down to find out that they intentionally made it impossible, or did so due to neglect.

I was very disappointed in Fallout 2 when I returned to the village on the first day ~carrying a GECK, and there was no awareness of it, or dialog options about it with any of the villagers or the pc's mother ~the Elder.

[BlackGauntlet]

See... I would actually be appreciating it if my PC lucked out and completed the game on fluke luck alone; though that's high unlikely to ever occur. Yet if when I get to the end of a game I can see that my PC could have done things a certain way and finished it immediately... It's a real let down to find out that they intentionally made it impossible, or did so due to neglect.

I was very disappointed in Fallout 2 when I returned to the village on the first day ~carrying a GECK, and there was no awareness of it, or dialog options about it with any of the villagers or the pc's mother ~the Elder.

Well, you could always do what the Enclave would have done if you had played according to sequence... WIPE OUT ARROYO (note: Not Gloria Arroyo :p).