Low Difficulty

[Vegemite_Sanga]

This game should be *HARD*

Don't hold my hand - don't give me a post-apocalyptic PDA to remind me of every little detail I need to complete to finish my quest. Give me a line like, "Old Bill's never been the same since he left the service" and let me figure out if that means he wants a new assault rifle or a reunion or if he wants to join my party. I want to miss details/plot points/quests on my first play-through.

Don't fence me in - one of Wasteland's most endearing features was that I could immediately head to somewhere way too difficult for me. Usually that meant nearly immediate death but it might also mean a successful and exhilarating raid to get some good equipment. Gating in games is in almost every instance overused, heavy handed and deeply artificial.

No glass ceilings - do not let me hit the level cap on my first play-through (or second OR third). I dare say no-one hit the level cap in Wasteland the first time through and that kept me coming back. On the other hand, in Fallout 3 I hit the level cap long before I'd finished the game and basically lost interest, I finished the main plot line but just stopped exploring or pursuing side-quests. Which leads me on to...

Don't make me too powerful - my level 5 characters should be nervous about going up against my level 1 characters. What I mean here is that the odds should be 3:2 in their favour rather than 10:1. The increase in character power should be really gradual and should be reinforced by forcing them to make trade-offs (i.e make non-combat skills valuable, limit equipment).

[jrodman]

Have to disagree. I have no interest anymore in difficult games. I don't have the time for them.

However I do think there are some key things that people wanting a retro experience will look for and should at least be achievable with settings:

- Quest arrows -- suspect no one wants these
- objective reminders auto-recorded with hints ; possibly disable-able. Would be nice if we could have some kind of freeform note-taking system (essentially notepad) integrated in the game that doesn't rewind with reload-after-death.
- Diffificult combat toggle-able in some way; some will really want to struggle, I certainly won't
- A game that isn't afraid to make you die and reload at times.
- realistic chances of encountering enemies/etc that you aren't ready for -- leading to splattering on the wall

But if I'm terribad, give me a way to grind it out or change some settings and complete the game, or I'm going to badmouth your outmoded game design for years.

[Drool]

I dare say no-one hit the level cap in Wasteland the first time through and that kept me coming back.

I still haven't. Supreme Jerk takes forever to attain.

[jimbo]

This game should be *HARD*

Don't hold my hand - don't give me a post-apocalyptic PDA to remind me of every little detail I need to complete to finish my quest. Give me a line like, "Old Bill's never been the same since he left the service" and let me figure out if that means he wants a new assault rifle or a reunion or if he wants to join my party. I want to miss details/plot points/quests on my first play-through.

Don't fence me in - one of Wasteland's most endearing features was that I could immediately head to somewhere way too difficult for me. Usually that meant nearly immediate death but it might also mean a successful and exhilarating raid to get some good equipment. Gating in games is in almost every instance overused, heavy handed and deeply artificial.

No glass ceilings - do not let me hit the level cap on my first play-through (or second OR third). I dare say no-one hit the level cap in Wasteland the first time through and that kept me coming back. On the other hand, in Fallout 3 I hit the level cap long before I'd finished the game and basically lost interest, I finished the main plot line but just stopped exploring or pursuing side-quests. Which leads me on to...

Don't make me too powerful - my level 5 characters should be nervous about going up against my level 1 characters. What I mean here is that the odds should be 3:2 in their favour rather than 10:1. The increase in character power should be really gradual and should be reinforced by forcing them to make trade-offs (i.e make non-combat skills valuable, limit equipment).

Completely agreed. This is what Wasteland is, and what I want from Wasteland 2.

[Balls Out 3]

Agreed. A lot of modern games tend to bore me on the normal difficulty setting. I'm mostly ok with that, just allow me to crank up the difficulty so that it's more along the lines of the old 90's CRPGs (and beyond that, even).

[Lucius]

The only thing I question is you first paragraph about the "PDA". I'd want more details what you mean exactly on whether I'd agree with what you are saying there or not. Otherwise I agree with this entire post. And being this is a party based game, you shouldn't be able to play through the entire game and not have a single party member death. The party shouldn't be wiping at every other encounter but there should be deaths, especially in longer dungeons.

[Thrin]

Don't hold my hand - don't give me a post-apocalyptic PDA to remind me of every little detail I need to complete to finish my quest. Give me a line like, "Old Bill's never been the same since he left the service" and let me figure out if that means he wants a new assault rifle or a reunion or if he wants to join my party. I want to miss details/plot points/quests on my first play-through.

I would still like tools in game to record stuff and keep track of stuff.

I remember having binders for my Ultima games. Every clue was written out and it was awesome. But, I was also really young.

Today, with teh internets even if they do this stuff the information will be readily available. Because of that I think a lot of game designers just decide to include it in the game. I am partial to the idea of not having a lot of the information that is found in 'newer' games just for the suspension of disbelief and enjoying the experience.

But, the key there is enjoying the experience. If something is 'frustrating' then it is no longer enjoyable. So, if I could have the option of "remembering" what a conversion said I would love that. Conversely, I don't need a quest arrow or some sort of question mark on top of an NPC's head to indicate it's a person of interest.

Don't make me too powerful - my level 5 characters should be nervous about going up against my level 1 characters. What I mean here is that the odds should be 3:2 in their favour rather than 10:1. The increase in character power should be really gradual and should be reinforced by forcing them to make trade-offs (i.e make non-combat skills valuable, limit equipment).

I'm all for that! I find that games make you become so powerful so quickly that it becomes boring. A recent game, Kingdoms of Amalur had that problem. Within a third of the way through the game the player was so powerful that the game lost its edge. Shortly thereafter I stopped playing the game.

Actually, looking back, that's usually my problem with single player games. I abandon them shortly after the challenge fades. I like having a series of tasks to do (quests) and I like puzzles. I like challenging combat. But, here's the rub, what is challenging combat and how do you determine the difficulty rating?

What you find easy may be super or even ultra hard for me.

Still, I'd like to see some AI on things we fight so they react well and even try to run away. I am hoping that Wasteland 2 makes running away a viable game choice and even something people will do instead of reloading and trying again.

I guess part of why games are easier now is because of how players play them. We've been taught and conditioned how to play an RPG. If we encounter something we kill it. There is no alternative. Why do we kill it? We are rewarded for this behaviour: We gain XP and we gain loot. So, given that, why -not- kill something?

Game design provides a lot of incentive to kill things but very little to run away. Running away may save your character's life buuuut... that's what reload is for right? With quicksaves and quickloads that behaviour is definitely promoted and reinforced.

Anyway, that's a derail and, please, if you have an opinion about saving and loading there is a great thread about just that in the permanent death poll! Lots of great ideas and thoughts there. I tossed it in because I would like to see running away become viable and something we are encouraged to do not just penalized. That is part of the difficulty feeling to me. If your party wasn't able to defeat its opponents but still survived (barely one may hope) then there is a definite feeling of danger and challenge.

Besides, one can come back later for revenge if need be.

I guess, yes to making the game difficult and challenging. If the game designers go the route of difficulty ratings please provide greater rewards and incentives for the harder difficulty levels. An easier game should provide for easier rewards.

[Signal]

I don't see why we can't have some kind of variable difficulty implemented.

[GnarlinBrando]

I agree that I don't want to be hand held through it, and I would like it to be challenging, I also don't want it to waste my time. One important part of that is having good quest information. No glowing arrow please. But I do want a detailed Journal or Log that I can read, I want it to be interesting, to have character too it. I really liked the Radio in fallout 3, if you stopped playing and came back you could always listen to the radio and hear what had happened last time you played. I want the game to be challenging, and not nanny me, but I need ease of entry and conveyance from gameplay internals. I don't want to have to start my quest over if I forget what was written down in the book I had to just find.

[Clawdius]

I don't see why we can't have some kind of variable difficulty implemented.

Exactly, variable difficulty allows one to "have their cake and eat it too" as it were, you can play the game in an easier mode, and wait until you have more time and maybe some mods and crank up the difficulty. It also allows for optional features to be added, such as the need to hydrate and eat that some people want, but not everyone wants to deal with. It adds replayability to go back and play a game on a higher difficulty when you fully grasp all the complexities of the system. Even people who advocate harsh difficulties should find the idea appealing, as it allows you to enjoy the challenge and not listen to people whining on the forums about how to get past the most basic obstacles.

[falke]

I wish there would be easy and medium difficulties as well.
like to have an easy trip through the game!

[Clockwork Knight]

I don't see why we can't have some kind of variable difficulty implemented.

Due to the scope of a crpg, that usually amounts to "on hard, enemies have 50% more HP and your skills are 20% lower" changes.

Have to disagree. I have no interest anymore in difficult games. I don't have the time for them.

Never understood this position. If you have limited "gaming time", just spend more of that time with the game. Gaming is not a job, you don't have to finish a title ASAP so you can move to the next one. If anything, you get more bang for your money (nowadays' games with 6 hour long campaigns come to mind...)

[krellen]

Never understood this position. If you have limited "gaming time", just spend more of that time with the game.

A lot of people not only have limited overall time, but limited windows of time - they might get an hour to play once or twice a week. So any gameplay element that takes more than an hour to complete becomes a near impossibility for these people to ever tackle, and those elements become far more common as difficulty increases.

[Clockwork Knight]

Can't they just save and continue later?

[krellen]

Can't they just save and continue later?

"Difficult" games also tend to include limited save mechanisms, especially "no saving in combat".

[Clockwork Knight]

That's unfortunate, but I can't say I like the idea of easier and simpler rpgs so the guy who has 10 minutes of free time a week can finish them too. There's always stuff that is easier to pick up and play, like puzzles.

[krellen]

That's unfortunate, but I can't say I like the idea of easier and simpler rpgs so the guy who has 10 minutes of free time a week can finish them too. There's always stuff that is easier to pick up and play, like puzzles.

And I don't like the idea of games that parents can't play, and the idea that certain games are no longer allowed to be enjoyed just because you've grown up and have responsibilities. This has the unfortunate side-effect of making games be "for kids", and the Bowdlerisation that always comes with that.

[noxnoctum]

+1 to OP. Games are so easy and boring nowadays.

[Eaglestoner]

This game should be *HARD*

Don't hold my hand
Don't fence me in
No glass ceilings
Don't make me too powerful .

Whole heartidly agreed. I should not become a God at all in this game. From start to end should be a brutal, bloody struggle and feel as rewarding as ice-cream in hell when I do finally complete it.

I should miss things, perform quests in the less than ideal order, make wrong decisions which bite me in the ass later, and have to run from enemies. For this game to stay true it needs to be a challenge.

Can't they just save and continue later?

"Difficult" games also tend to include limited save mechanisms, especially "no saving in combat".

That's what game devs do when they can't be arsed making their games sufficiently difficult. They make it seem harder by limiting save opportunities. Truly difficult games give you unlimited save opportunities because you will bloody well need them.

[Necrox]

I appreciate that some people like really difficult games.
Those people are not me.

I sure hope there will be an option for those people, to get all the punishment they want. But for the rest of us who don't have all the time in the world, and just want to enjoy as much of the (hopefully large) game as possible, I hope there will be a difficulty slider that goes down to the "we know you have a job and a family" setting.
I never played Wasteland - I was 8 years old and didn't know more than a few English words at the time (push, pull, open, look... spot the theme?), but I did play Fallout 1 and 2 twenty+ times, each. I feel their difficulty was just right - but perhaps an ultra-hardcore mode could be added to that.

Thanks.