Don't "niche" yourself out of business

[GemmaReborn]

The irony is that they have niched themselves into buisness.

[TheLastBrunnenG]

Look at some of the other posts in the "What to avoid" forum. People don't want a quest log, for pete's sake.

I have a serious question for you: have you ever played a game without a quest log? Based on your age, I suspect you haven't, because it's been a convention for quite a few years now. I remember playing games before the quest log became a convention, and I can tell you with absolute certainty that it's unnecessary. I understand the sentiment of those who say a quest log detracts from the enjoyment of playing the game, because the adventure of the game should not be a laundry list of things to do to get more rewards.

Having played CRPG's for decades, I can say that a quest log is an innovation I do want. Why on God's irradiated Earth wouldn't my character make the occasional note? My own memory's terrible. If I have a party of 4-6 characters, somebody better remember the name of the guy we're supposed to save / kill / deliver a package to. If you think the quest log detracts from the game, don't hit "Q"! Or whatever you've remapped it to. But take the ten seconds to program in a simple log - even one-line reminders with no other details will do - instead of making me do it on real paper.

Same thing with maps. If I know I need to get to Vegas, then what do I do? Wander the Wasteland for years of game time looking for Vegas? No, I'd just ask every other Ranger in Ranger Center (or farmer in Ag Station, whatever) "Which way to Vegas?" Even in post-apocalyptic lands, there are still maps. Why the devil can't I start out with a half-burned AAA road map of the Southwest?!? Wandering for the sake of wandering is itself immersion-breaking when common sense says that everybody left alive would know at least the general direction to the biggest neon-glowing city for miles around.

[imperialus]

If I might chime in with a bit of wisdom I have gained from my other grognard niche of choice table top roleplaying.

Now table top gaming in general is a niche product. Within that niche I am even more out there.

I play Basic D&D, more specifically B/X D&D. For those of you who don't know B/X is the version of D&D that was released in the year I was born 1981. It consisted of a 64 page "basic" booklet and a 64 page "expert" book. You could play a Fighter, Cleric, Thief, Magic User, Elf, Dwarf or Halfling. Yes, Elves are a class. Compare this to 3rd or 4th edition D&D with dozens of books hundreds of classes/prestige classes/races ect.

Within the PnP community there has been a movement over the past 4 or 5 years called the Old School Renaissance or OSR for short. It has seen the release of a number of clones of the old systems for those who either don't have access to the old games or want to publish new adventures for the old systems without worrying about copyrights. Think of them as being like DOSBox for your tabletop.

There are 3 major systems out there, Labyrinth Lord (which emulates B/X and BECMI D&D), OSRIC (1st Edition AD&D), and Swords and Wizardry (The original 1974 Whitebox). These are the baseline clones, they do everything they can to maintain the mechanics and systems inherent in the old rulesets only changing what they are legally required to. They are close enough that although my table has switched to using the LL books for our games to reduce wear and tear on our 30 year old manuals we still consider ourselves to be playing Basic D&D.

From that base however there is a wide variety of 're-imaginings' of the old systems. Systems like Adventurer Conqueror King which is based on the basic system but greatly expands on B/X's 'endgame' with rules for realm management, expanded rules for strongholds and politics. They've also expanded the racial classes as well with different elvin or dwarven classes.

Others like Lamentations of the Flame Princess, Dungeon Crawl Classics, Labyrinth Lords Advanced Edition Companion, or Castles and Crusades all change the system to one degree or another, often allowing for modern conventions like C&C's unified system, or highlighting a particular aspect of oldschool play to a greater degree like Dungeon Crawl Classics insane lethality and 'True Vancian' magic system.

That said though when you sit down around a table and play the feel of the systems is very similar across the board.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that at the end of the day Wasteland 2 is never going to please everyone in its attempt to recreate the experience that they want, because everyone's experience will have been different. I for one don't like the complexity of 1st ed AD&D's ruleset, but others are drawn to it like a moth to flame. Others can't stand the idea of race as class, heck I know of one guy who claims that D&D started going downhill after Supplement 1 Greyhawk since it was meant to appeal to Gary Gygax's powergaming kids. At the end of the day though we're all keen on old school D&D. What I think the community should focus on is more the high level emotional stuff that draws us to old school computer games, communicate that to the developers and then let them take care of the details for how to provide that experience. It may be that some new developments might make their way in, like how Castles and Crusades uses ascending armour class while other elements will be retained, like how all of the OSR games use experience points required as a balancing factor.

I for one trust Mr. Fargo to get it right. I think he knows what it is that we are looking for and is going to do his best to give us that. I'm not going to pick nits over how fast health recovers, or how detailed the quest log is ect.

[BlackGauntlet]

Wasteland DOES have a Quest Log. On my A4-sized sheet that is transferred to a new one every 2-3 years. Until the Quest Log is in my BRAIN.

That said, yeah. I hate Quest Logs. Makes people skip important dialogues and stuff. However, I would like to be able to call up an in-game notepad (standard Ranger issue) and type in all the stuff I want or need versus actual notepad. My wife hates those stuff and would sooner throw it away than to have them clutter up the desk.

Oh, and automaps. Helpful. Since any sane player would get a graph paper and jot it down back in the past but hey, let's update ourselves. We are no longer kids with too much time on our hands. Most of the time, we'd be traveling and really do not have the luxury of having graph papers, notebooks, pencils and erasers on us while we enjoy a short revelry of Wasteland 2 on the laptop.

Also, it'd be fun to have "Cartography" as a Ranger skill and have the minimap & automap display some wrong features if the skill level is too low.

[krellen]

Also, it'd be fun to have "Cartography" as a Ranger skill and have the minimap & automap display some wrong features if the skill level is too low.

Someone played Might and Magic, didn't they?

[Drool]

I play Basic D&D, more specifically B/X D&D.

Red Box D&D? Wow. I played that once. It was certainly a different beast. Personally, I was quite happy with 2nd Ed. You could use a million books, or just one. And let me tell you, finding an original 2nd Ed player's book in '98 was a bit of a chore.

[krellen]

finding an original 2nd Ed player's book in '98 was a bit of a chore.

I have two sitting on my gaming bookshelf. One is even in almost pristine condition.

[Drool]

I ended up buying a spare from one of the store employees because it was out of print. It's still bouncing around somewhere.

[BlackGauntlet]

Someone played Might and Magic, didn't they?

Don't we all? It's not like PC RPGamers at that time have much of a choice.

[Lanatir]

No offense to the OP, but if you want to play an RPG with modern features, there is plenty out there for you. Im ok with optional things like turning a Questjournal on or off, same goes with automap, but at least leave it as old school as possible.

[God Emperor Charles]

Friends,

As I remember Wasteland... Mapping wasn't really needed because as you played the game, things got added to the world in front of your eyes, and never varied. So if they do it the same way this time, that part of this conversation is moot.
Quest logs? I would almost demand a quest log be added, as this is the 21st century. I personally don't want to have to stop playing the damned game to pick up a pen and take notes. I made done with that AGES ago. Call me spoiled if you wish. I can take it. I'm a man. I'm also going to be 47 by the time this game sees the light of day, and probably as senile as the day is long, so GIVE ME MY QUEST LOG WHEN YOU BRING ME MY SOUP!!!!!!

CKB

[majorchaos]

I´do not worry too much that this game will be catering for the taste of a very small group of players. Mr. Fargo tried to sell Wasteland 2 to many publishers first and only after that was unsuccessful went to Kickstarter. I highly doubt that he contacted the publishers telling them "hey, I have this awesome idea of a CRPG that displays stunning 1990 graphics and has a sophisticated sound system that emulates a pc case speaker".

Since he went to the publishers first he must be convinced that there is a sizeable market for a crpg that requires intelligence, thought, tactics.... , a view the the publishers obviously did not want to share. Therefore I´am convinced that the target audience is much bigger than the group of people who pledged money on Kickstarter, not only because they want to make some money with this game but also to proof the publishers wrong.

So I think it will incorporate innovations like OK sound and graphics (while giving priority to substance over style), quest journal, automap, several save games....

[paultakeda]

I play Basic D&D, more specifically B/X D&D.

Red Box D&D? Wow. I played that once. It was certainly a different beast. Personally, I was quite happy with 2nd Ed. You could use a million books, or just one. And let me tell you, finding an original 2nd Ed player's book in '98 was a bit of a chore.

I've got basic, expert and companion in my closet, ratty with age and use. Also a 2nd Ed.

[Bozar]

I'm with the guy who said fuck all you haters. If Andre Wallin reads this: YOU DID AN AMAZING JOB!

Enough with this WL1 nostalgia bs. This is 2012, things will be a lot different, so far so good imho. I'm glad I pledged my 5 digits.

[The Tallest]

I'm with the guy who said fuck all you haters. If Andre Wallin reads this: YOU DID AN AMAZING JOB!

Enough with this WL1 nostalgia bs. This is 2012, things will be a lot different, so far so good imho.

This. I love the first concept!

[mindx2]

I'm with the guy who said fuck all you haters. If Andre Wallin reads this: YOU DID AN AMAZING JOB!

Enough with this WL1 nostalgia bs. This is 2012, things will be a lot different, so far so good imho. I'm glad I pledged my 5 digits.

Your statement is wrong on so many levels. You say "Enough with this WL1 nostalgia bs." and "things will be a lot different." Really?! For the game that promises to bring back that "old school" gaming experience. For the game that is called WASTELAND 2?! For a game that was specifically pitched as NOT being a "2012" type game?! Why did you pledge in the first place?!

I want that retro feel not only as far as game-play is concerned but the overall "feel" from the lore and 80s vibe that was established IN Wasteland 1.

[Jasede]

I'm with the guy who said fuck all you haters. If Andre Wallin reads this: YOU DID AN AMAZING JOB!

Enough with this WL1 nostalgia bs. This is 2012, things will be a lot different, so far so good imho. I'm glad I pledged my 5 digits.

Your statement is wrong on so many levels. You say "Enough with this WL1 nostalgia bs." and "things will be a lot different." Really?! For the game that promises to bring back that "old school" gaming experience. For the game that is called WASTELAND 2?! For a game that was specifically pitched as NOT being a "2012" type game?! Why did you pledge in the first place?!

I want that retro feel not only as far as game-play is concerned but the overall "feel" from the lore and 80s vibe that was established IN Wasteland 1.

Exactly. We were promised a classic, old-school game. A game most current generation people will despise because of the complex combat, the lack of virtual "romances", the focus on character-building and exploration and a lack of hand-holding. We don't want a 2012 game. How often do we need to repeat that?

Brian Fargo will deliver exactly what he promised- that, or he will betray the trust of all of us who pledged in good faith that we would receive an old-school RPG that we have been denied for more than a decade, other than the rare independent offering (Knights of the Chalice comes to mind).

[Bozar]

I'm with the guy who said fuck all you haters. If Andre Wallin reads this: YOU DID AN AMAZING JOB!

Enough with this WL1 nostalgia bs. This is 2012, things will be a lot different, so far so good imho. I'm glad I pledged my 5 digits.

Your statement is wrong on so many levels. You say "Enough with this WL1 nostalgia bs." and "things will be a lot different." Really?! For the game that promises to bring back that "old school" gaming experience. For the game that is called WASTELAND 2?! For a game that was specifically pitched as NOT being a "2012" type game?! Why did you pledge in the first place?!

I want that retro feel not only as far as game-play is concerned but the overall "feel" from the lore and 80s vibe that was established IN Wasteland 1.

What the hell are you moaning about? I am a WL1 fanboy. But here is the thing, it's been 25 years. Wake the fuck up. There will be new art direction, probably completely new combat system, view perspective etc. If you want a direct followup with 10 color palette and 100% text based game, you are in for a dissapointment.

[mindx2]

I'm with the guy who said fuck all you haters. If Andre Wallin reads this: YOU DID AN AMAZING JOB!

Enough with this WL1 nostalgia bs. This is 2012, things will be a lot different, so far so good imho. I'm glad I pledged my 5 digits.

Your statement is wrong on so many levels. You say "Enough with this WL1 nostalgia bs." and "things will be a lot different." Really?! For the game that promises to bring back that "old school" gaming experience. For the game that is called WASTELAND 2?! For a game that was specifically pitched as NOT being a "2012" type game?! Why did you pledge in the first place?!

I want that retro feel not only as far as game-play is concerned but the overall "feel" from the lore and 80s vibe that was established IN Wasteland 1.

What the hell are you moaning about? I am a WL1 fanboy. But here is the thing, it's been 25 years. Wake the fuck up. There will be new art direction, probably completely new combat system, view perspective etc. If you want a direct followup with 10 color palette and 100% text based game, you are in for a dissapointment.

Man, you are TOTALLY missing the point of this whole Kickstarter. As a "fan" of W1 you sure seem to want a 2012 style game.

[Bozar]

Man, you are TOTALLY missing the point of this whole Kickstarter. As a "fan" of W1 you sure seem to want a 2012 style game.

Then do educate me. What IS the point of this kickstarter? And do educate me on what a 2012 style WL2 is supposed to be like? You seem like the elder around here, I'm gonna shut my noob mouth now and let you clarify things for me.