Gay Characters

[CENB71]

I would buy Wasteland 2 for sure if it had gay characters in it.

No worries, they'll probably have gay characters in this game anyway, they had that since Fallout I think.(as far as I can remember)

Or if you're talking about player character as gay, isn't chose your sex as male/female and play as gay count as gay too? or like in Fallout that dialogs changing depends on your character's sex? that'd be awesome idea. I hope this game don't have voice acting for NPCs(Maybe only major NPCs but not all side NPCs) so they can create a lot of funny dialogs depends on your sex and stats because I'm aiming to start my character as 1 INT like in Fallout

another question, and If there's no gay in this game?(which is nearly impossible) I'm serious, I do really want to know because you sound very demanding

[BlackGauntlet]

No worries, they'll probably have gay characters in this game anyway, they had that since Fallout I think.(as far as I can remember)

And because of Fallout, I was tempted to put a thread here called "Hetero Characters" because EVERYONE in Fallout is either Strictly Gay or Bisexual.

At first, I thought, "Holy cow! I can say THAT to EVERY guy that my female character could even if I'm now using a male one? And they allow this to go through ESRB? Damn! Can I kill children?" Turns out I could.

So, since Wasteland is, by default, a game populated with NPCs that are ALL gay/bisexual and just happened to have a spouse of opposite gender for the sole purpose of propagating, I hope I will get the option of having a party with AT LEAST 1 straight character. Is that too much to ask?

[venceremos]

Dont get me wrong, i have nothing against gay people, on the contrary, i know quite a few myself, and i treat them just the way i treat everyone else, but what makes gay people so very special that they have to be mentioned particularly? Why not assume that it is totally NORMAL to be gay, without the need to mention it?

Because being forced to not mention it shows it is not normal, however it is that you define the word 'normal'. Sexuality is expressed all the time because it is an integral part of who we are. You may not realize how abundant expressions of sexuality are, but those in a sexual minority can often see it quite painfully every day.

Let's turn it around: Why not assume that it is totally normal to be straight, without the need to mention it? Fine, but then you mustn't reference any boyfriend/girlfriend/husband/wife (in a straight relationship) anywhere in the game, and you have to erase any character expressing attraction to any other character of the opposite sex, and any character mentioning the fact that any two characters of differing sexes have sexual attraction between them, and so on. Imagine a post-apocalyptic world without prostitutes, for example.

There's no need to have characters who are just gay and nothing else, nor do gay characters have to be portrayed in a positive light. (Villains can be gay too!) Just let there be /some/ expression of differing sexuality in the game, if sexuality is at all ever expressed in the game. And I'd say avoiding sexuality in a deep RPG is almost impossible, unless you purposefully make the entire world completely sexless.

[BlackGauntlet]

Like I said, make everyone bisexual like how they were in Fallout 1 and have NO ONE expounding the merits of both hetero and homosexuality because everyone is fucking everyone. There is no gay or straight anymore. No more lines drawn.

If I were a regular dirt farmer in Wasteland with nobody telling me what's right and wrong, with no laws enforced upon except the regular raiders coming in to the farm to rob me of my crops and bugger my ass, I'd never have thought that being straight is at all natural and there was anything worth censuring for shagging another person with a penis.

And being alone in the wasteland for too long, any social/sexual interactions are welcome, be it male or female. Humans crave companionship (yes, even the basement nerds: they just replace that "companion" with a non-living thing) and if the need arises, nothing wrong with fucking sheep either.

Everything becomes so base and primal that whatever "class" or "status" are moot. In fact, the more respected/feared/rich you are, the more you will be prone to exploit everyone else because you can and no one can stop you. Nobody cares if YOU are gay or straight, they just want to satisfy THEIR own needs: a "Consensual? Fine, 2 people happy. Non-consensual? Fine too, as long as I'm the one initiating" kind of mentality.

So, the underlying point is no longer who is gay/straight... it's who owns the biggest gun (pun intended).

[stonetoes]

And by the way, not that this matters in the least, and maybe Stonetoes has mentioned being gay in another thread, but I, at least, am a straight dude who's totally for this. Not only is it an opportunity for a bunch of interesting story possibilities that have absolutely nothing to do with romance, and not only does it flesh out the world and characters in a believable and mature fashion, and not only is it consistent with the content of previous games in the series, but it's just a nice thing to do.

I'm just a straight dude who wants characters and NPCs who aren''t generic and samey. I know what it's like to be straight, white, male, cisgendered, able-bodied etc etc. I like my media to include depictions of people who I don't interact with all day every day.

And some of the assumptions here do make me laugh. You think I don't want to fight raiders who are Buddhist vegetarian "soccer" players? I'm British, I'm sick of American media being full of Baseball!

Ultimately I want a wide range of NPCs, but some types aren't going to be included because of public pressure. If you make 2 NPCs out of a cast of hundreds be carpenters, or play soccer, you aren't going to have groups lobbying for it to be banned or people on message boards screaming about having having the Buddhist agenda shoved down their throats and being forced to view hot carpenter-on-power-tool action.

That's why topics like this are important, not because I think gay people are special and need to be included above all others, or because I think inXile are raging homophobes, but because I'm afraid that they might see all the controversy around this and take the easy option to ignore it completely.

And if this project is about anything, it's not simply taking the easy way out.

[Mort2]

Because being forced to not mention it shows it is not normal, however it is that you define the word 'normal'. Sexuality is expressed all the time because it is an integral part of who we are. You may not realize how abundant expressions of sexuality are, but those in a sexual minority can often see it quite painfully every day.

Let's turn it around: Why not assume that..
--snipped pointless psychological bable--

So far the only forcing here is done by you, countless of posters have already explained how the topic of sexuality/romance was treated in W1 (and later titles) and provided you with examples showed you that the topic was treated equally normal. However, here you are playing at politics 101 i.e. when you dont like the answer, change/rephrase the argument into something else, thus framing the public opinion based on it rather the original one.

Because, I couldnt see you come up with an argument as to why the subject should be give extra attention than normal. So here you play at word nitpick with someone about the meaning of normal and overall framing this into a 'people who dont want to give the topic more focus than normal, are homophobic'. Also before you(someone else?) got upset because we gone OT and discussed an example from FO if it was rape or consensual and few post later we got a claimed that we compared rape with gay or something like that check any other normal thread, people go off topic sometimes, especially when the topic(which was rehashed and rehashed and rehashed) is not very interesting.

Also you should really consider what normal means in a post apocalyptic world with no law and order, you may want want the writers add extra focus to homosexuality but this is not ME3, it will be more like FO, where there was slavers and you had the choice to become one... Where ghouls and mutants where not allowed to enter Vault city because they were not considered normal...

EDITED.

[Hell Razor]

1) If it's so trivial and easy to include us, as you said, why NOT do it?

As I said, it's trivial nature makes me annoyed that you think it's important.

2) How many do there need to be? There need to be enough, silly goose.

Which is... (I need something more than a dodge here)

3) If I have to spend every other waking hour of every year of my life having heterosexuality "shoved in my face", then I'm sure any manly man can put up with seeing the same-sex term "partner" once every other day. I'm sorry my demographic is so distracting to you and your gaming sessions. I'll just let you get back to playing as straight dudes, saving their princesses and girlfriends and getting rewarded with kisses and pixelated bikinis while the credits roll.

You seem to have completely missed the point. The existence or mention of a relationship (of any label) in a game is not shoving it in your face. Putting unrealistic focus on it in order to make sure Gamescook et. al. notice and are satisfied, is.

So I suspect that the options are either a) risk many people not even noticing it, and thus having a similar effect as not even including it, or b) put immersion-breaking hyperfocus on it to make sure the vast majority of people do notice it.

This is true of any element that is being included to satisfy the real-world political egos of gamers. Ever heard the term "gratuitous?" It's the same way I feel about bikini-clad women thrown into a game for no clear reason. It detracts from the game because it seems to be there for an alternative purpose outside the game.

[venceremos]

So far the only forcing here is done by you, ...

I was replying to a particular post and a particular argument contained within. There are many people talking here and my post was not intended to be an answer for everyone. I haven't even read the entire topic. As to the rest of your post, you've obviously mistaken me for someone else.

Also you should really consider what normal means in a post apocalyptic world with no law and order, you may want want the writers add extra focus to homosexuality but this is not ME3, it will be more like FO, where there was slavers and you had the choice to become one... Where ghouls and mutants where not allowed to enter Vault city because they were not considered normal...

It's quite obvious you haven't really read, or understood, any of my very few posts in this topic. For example, the first. All that I would like is that the game doesn't pretend that sexual minorities do not exist. That is all. Anything added to this request is a figment of your imagination. I did not ask for "romance options", portrayal of gay people in an always positive light, a horde of gay characters, or banning of any kind of treatment of in-game gay characters. I would actually consider in-game hate crimes (and even the option for the PC to commit them) a plus, not a minus. This is, after all, a game where you have the option to kill anyone.

[Gamescook]

I agree with Venceremos; it would be great if Wasteland 2 would set itself apart from other videogame worlds and not pretend that gay people do not exist. In an RPG that has us exploring an entire world, it's especially noticeable. Shift a few pronouns around in some ordinary sidequests, show a couple of NPC men living together in a shack instead of an NPC man and woman once or twice, and you're gold.

If your express purpose is to create a living breathing world for your game, it wouldn't serve anyone to fill it with human characters that may as well be lifeless, homogenous robots.

[etix]

you will have your gay/bisexual characters as they they present and well fit in previous games and you can take is as granted

making threatening troll topics of "i will not buy this game if it doesnt have my gay romance buddy in it" is what makes everyone hates you so deal with it

[Madball357]

If your express purpose is to create a living breathing world for your game, it wouldn't serve anyone to fill it with human characters that may as well be lifeless, homogenous robots.

Oh, because the one and only way to create characters full of life is to make them homosexual?? Are you kidding me??

Right, forget serious and deep writing!! Just make it a gay parade and there's your 'breathing world'!!

Wow, just wow.

[stonetoes]

If your express purpose is to create a living breathing world for your game, it wouldn't serve anyone to fill it with human characters that may as well be lifeless, homogenous robots.

Oh, because the one and only way to create characters full of life is to make them homosexual?? Are you kidding me??

Right, forget serious and deep writing!! Just make it a gay parade and there's your 'breathing world'!!

Wow, just wow.

He is responding to the assertions by many, many people that they want no sexuality mentioned in the game. You either have the presence of sexuality, or you don't, in which case it's going to be a pretty strange world you're constructing, where no one is married or has a romantic relationship with anyone else.

And if you are going to have sexuality present, then it might as well be a varied depiction of it, GLBT people included as well as straight.

[ffordesoon]

@Luckz:

I apologize. I was in a bad mood and read more into your post than I should've.

[BlackGauntlet]

He is responding to the assertions by many, many people that they want no sexuality mentioned in the game. You either have the presence of sexuality, or you don't, in which case it's going to be a pretty strange world you're constructing, where no one is married or has a romantic relationship with anyone else.

And if you are going to have sexuality present, then it might as well be a varied depiction of it, GLBT people included as well as straight.

I really don't know how much "romance" will there be in a post-apocalyptic world. But sex? Sure! Plenty of it!

And "marriage"? Who the hell is going to certify it? The Rangers?

It won't be strange if Folk A screwed with Folk B and Folk B screwed with Folk C who, in turn, screwed with both Folk A and Folk D in a daisy-chain in a world where there's no legislation. Heck, Folk D could be a Brahmin and every sexual act was done in out in the streets during broad daylight with kids watching (and may even participate in) the show. And you know what? Because there is no law, nobody is going to do anything about it.

So, heterosexuality? Check.
Homosexuality? Check.

And a disclaimer that in no way am I putting homosexuality with the same level regarding below in a post-apocalyptic world:
Bestiality? Check.
Pedophiles? Check.
Orgies? Check.
Necrophiles? Check.
Rapists? Check.
Pie-fuckers? Check.

The thing about Wasteland back in the 80s was that the players had to conjure the image of the Wasteland in your own head. The moving 2D portraits help to inspire your imagination but most of the time, you're on your own. But I guess times change and people nowadays just can't imagine for themselves that, "Oh look! A group of bikers! I'd better get rid of them or they're gonna haul me back to their den and lecture me on their ways of 'straight men' thing which is totally different from how our party works: The Flighty Dolphin Flower Rangers."

Brian Fargo really has his work cut out for him if he is to please everyone. But since he DID mention that WL2 would be niche and not catered to a big group of audience, I can't say for him that gay characters would be extremely prominent. But hey, you could ALWAYS imagine every 'straight' guy in the game as closet gays.

[krellen]

And "marriage"? Who the hell is going to certify it? The Rangers?

Charmaine and the Church of the Mushroom Cloud?

[ffordesoon]

It has nothing to do with a paucity of imagination. I can pretend Harold is secretly giving it to that nutty dude outside his little hovel in Fallout 1 all I want, but I can't then hold Harold up as an example of a gay character in the game, because there's no evidence to support it. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, sure, but it is absence of evidence.

I'll leave it to others to explain why the distinction is important, as I don't trust myself not to mess it up, but I thought pointing at least that out might be useful.

Also, it's not like marriage in a post-apocalyptic scenario needs to be officiated. Hell, it might be interesting to meet a gay couple who view the apocalypse as both profoundly sad and liberating.

[BlackGauntlet]

It has nothing to do with a paucity of imagination. I can pretend Harold is secretly giving it to that nutty dude outside his little hovel in Fallout 1 all I want, but I can't then hold Harold up as an example of a gay character in the game, because there's no evidence to support it. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, sure, but it is absence of evidence.

If you're gonna talk about Fallout, my MALE character was a professional fluffer. That said, absence of evidence? Ridiculous really. Does that mean I have to see a gay couple fornicate before my eyes to proclaim that, yes, they are fucking and they are quite gay even though they look really normal to me when they aren't giving it to each other?

I'll leave it to others to explain why the distinction is important, as I don't trust myself not to mess it up, but I thought pointing at least that out might be useful.

It's only useful when you're going to talk about legality. But, in the case of imagining stuff in our heads or in a world that does not even HAVE a legal system... not really useful. So no.

Also, it's not like marriage in a post-apocalyptic scenario needs to be officiated.

It's not "need to", it's "can". Sure, you can have your pseudo-doomsday cult but who's gonna enforce your vows?

Hell, it might be interesting to meet a gay couple who view the apocalypse as both profoundly sad and liberating.

It would be... IF THE APOCALYPSE HAD NOT HAPPEN MORE THAN 100 YEARS AGO. They wouldn't even know the difference of the old world with the new one, for crying out loud! Do you understand the point I'm putting across? No one cares if I'm fucking women, men, dogs, kids, pies or exhaust pipes in a post-apocalyptic world! The only person who would care is the jealous lover of the women/men, owner of the dog, parents of the kids, eater of the pie and Optimus Prime.

Good god! Is Role-playing really that hard?!

[homeslice82]

Step one: Make a thread asking for gay characters in WL2.

Step two: Watch as it devolves into a politicized mudfight.

Step three: Realize that you should just let the writers do their jobs, and give them room to include or exclude whatever they need to tell their story.

Step four: See step one.

[Mort2]

I think there is a bug in your algorithm, since for some reason people here seem to skip over step three... also its so unfortunate that step four isnt stop.

[BlackGauntlet]

I think there is a bug in your algorithm, since for some reason people here seem to skip over step three... also its so unfortunate that step four isnt stop.

Yeah, it should be:

Step one: Make a thread asking for gay characters in WL2.

Step two: Assured repeatedly that there will be regardless of supporters/detractors with many voicing out that it didn't matter

Step three: Go into heated debate to rationalize why it DOES matter and forgetting main objective of the post at the same time.

Step four: Gets deleted due to being off-topic/downright trolling.

Step five: See Step one.