Art style

[Hiver]

I can only agree. loved and still love heavy metal magazine and i just read somewhere that Brian Fargo also liked it (even has first issue and... first hundred numbers or something like it).

thanx for all those pictures, nice to remember good old times.

[Tagaziel]

Personally, I'd like for Wasteland to be a realistic alternative to the usual over-the-top stylized post-apocalyptic game. These heavily styled futuristic/retrofuturistic/etc. games are dime a dozen these days. The original Wasteland didn't really include any major stylisation in its portraits:




A grittily realistic aesthetic could be the defining feature of Wasteland's art style, much like extremely realistic art style and gameplay are core features of ARMA, making it easily distinguishable from arcade shooters like Call of Duty (and its PIMP ME UP uniforms).

A realistic art style without major exaggeration would not prevent including colours and aesthetics common in the 80s/90s, and could even be factored into the narrative. For instance, cloth dyes would be hard to come by in the post-apocalypse and as such, colours could be used to distinguish social groups one belongs to. The lowest, beggars, poor peasants etc. would have little in the way of colour, wearing drab, simple clothing. However, as one moved up the social ladder, the clothes would become flashier and more colourful.

[moomoos]

NONONONONO.

Cell shading gives that disgusting cartoony look.
I say... NO!

[Hiver]

Personally, I'd like for Wasteland to be a realistic alternative to the usual over-the-top stylized post-apocalyptic game. These heavily styled futuristic/retrofuturistic/etc. games are dime a dozen these days. The original Wasteland didn't really include any major stylisation in its portraits:




A grittily realistic aesthetic could be the defining feature of Wasteland's art style,

gahh... talking about cold showers mang...
And i wouldn't necessarily agree in rarity of "realistic looking" games these days either.

[moomoos]

I would just like to say that you, sir, are right ON SPOT.
That heavy metal magazine aestethics. Looks so damn good. Would be perfect for Wasteland.
I think that 80's raw comic look is something wasteland 2 should be inspired by.
And wasteland 2 should avoid cartoony and/or shiny/glossy modern look.

[size=150]Many old geezers like us would love an art direction that brings back the style of 80s/early 90s air-brushed sci-fi art and illustration.

Here's what I feel defines the 80s/early 90s look, according to the notable artists of that era. The most defining magazine of that era ought to be HEAVY METAL magazine, the American successor of the French Metal Hurlant featuring high-concept fantasy art.

[Comrade Snarky]

derekticon, you just summed up EVERYTHING Ive been trying to bring across in this thread. Thank you.

[Comrade Snarky]

Personally, I'd like for Wasteland to be a realistic alternative to the usual over-the-top stylized post-apocalyptic game. These heavily styled futuristic/retrofuturistic/etc. games are dime a dozen these days. The original Wasteland didn't really include any major stylisation in its portraits:




A grittily realistic aesthetic could be the defining feature of Wasteland's art style, much like extremely realistic art style and gameplay are core features of ARMA, making it easily distinguishable from arcade shooters like Call of Duty (and its PIMP ME UP uniforms).

A realistic art style without major exaggeration would not prevent including colours and aesthetics common in the 80s/90s, and could even be factored into the narrative. For instance, cloth dyes would be hard to come by in the post-apocalypse and as such, colours could be used to distinguish social groups one belongs to. The lowest, beggars, poor peasants etc. would have little in the way of colour, wearing drab, simple clothing. However, as one moved up the social ladder, the clothes would become flashier and more colourful.

Why.
How is this helping distinguish this game agenst any other "Ultra-realistic" Game out there? Colorless drab has been done, and trying to make it even more "realistic" ( A vapid goal mind you. No matter how you try, a game will NEVER be truly "realistic".) is equitable to trying to put the proverbial square peg into the round hole. Tell me, if this game took your direction, how would you differentiate a screenshot from wasteland 2's gameplay from Fallout 3's or any other Post-apoc video game on the market? (Disregarding camera angles)
"these heavily styled futuristic/retrofuturistic/etc. games are dime a dozen these days"
Bullshit. If anything these are a good thing. encouraging alternative graphic design choices does nothing but improve and dramatically differentiate games on the market.
"usual over-the-top stylized post-apocalyptic game.'
Which ones? Borderlands doesn't count and Fallout's graphic design may have been 50's pulp inspired, but the in-game graphics themselves are fairly gritty. Rage had some color and some inventive art direction but still stuck to it's burnt out ruins. I can only assume your speaking out your ass, to put it mildly.
"The original Wasteland didn't really include any major stylisation in its portraits"
One, that's because art in the DOS games never had the range or ability to render "style" into it's sprites and, dude, This is a game where one of the first bosses is a mad farmer who controls a army of murderous rabbits in a field of oversize vegges and you want realism in the sequel.
"extremely realistic art style and gameplay are core features of ARMA"
ARMA is First person shooter build with the expressed purpose of simulating real military tactics and operations. Wasteland 2 is a Isometric Party based Crpg.
Trying to equate the two is far beyond overextending your reach. If you want realism in your Post-nuke video game, i can only prescribe S.T.A.L.K.E.R.

[Hiver]

Comrade Snarky - Word. Indeed.

btw, i wouldnt call Stalker, realistic either
Well, maybe generally in some sense but definitely had a lot of "out there" stuff in it too. From art to other smaller things.

[Tagaziel]

Why.
How is this helping distinguish this game agenst any other "Ultra-realistic" Game out there? Colorless drab has been done, and trying to make it even more "realistic" ( A vapid goal mind you. No matter how you try, a game will NEVER be truly "realistic".) is equitable to trying to put the proverbial square peg into the round hole. Tell me, if this game took your direction, how would you differentiate a screenshot from wasteland 2's gameplay from Fallout 3's or any other Post-apoc video game on the market? (Disregarding camera angles)

You missed my point by about as wide a margin as can be. If you have actually read the entire post, particularly the last paragraph, you'd note the ways I propose to include a wide array of colours in a way that also allows for delivering plot exposition and giving clues to the player. I did not, and I will not insist upon a drab, colourless palette, because that's about as far from realism as possible.

As for discerning screenshots? The camera's point of view is integral to Wasteland 2, so you can't really disregard that. And since that limits the ability to show detail in character models and textures in regular gameplay (dialogues etc. are a big unknown), then the defining characteristics should be composition, colour palette (which can be implemented in the way mentioned above), GUI aesthetic, lack of color correction (which is a terrible crime against humanity, yes, I'm looking at you, Human Revolution).

Define the WL2 appearance and world not through an arbitrary art style, but through careful consideration of how the world and its appearances would change over the one hundred years that follow the War in 1998. Make that realistic, plausible approach to design the selling point.

And since you graciously provided a better example than ARMA, I'll use it. S.T.A.L.K.E.R. is a brilliant example of an art style I have yet to see realized for the purpose of a post-apocalyptic RPG. Basing on existing technologies, GSC Gameworld artists created interesting interpretations of modern military and scientific technologies adapted for use in the Zone. The iconic stalker suit looks plausible, as does the Berill-05 Spetsnatz armor and even the military armoured suit. Is it heavily stylized? Nope. Is it realistic? Plausible, yes. But does it disappear among other faux-realistic titles? Hell no.

"these heavily styled futuristic/retrofuturistic/etc. games are dime a dozen these days"
Bullshit. If anything these are a good thing. encouraging alternative graphic design choices does nothing but improve and dramatically differentiate games on the market.

Having a market saturated with only heavily stylized games is as bad as having it filled to the brim with pretentiously realistic ones. The key is variety. Heavily stylized games are popular lately, so a more realistic design in games would be a welcome change.

Particularly because WL aimed for a pretty realistic design.

"usual over-the-top stylized post-apocalyptic game.'
Which ones? Borderlands doesn't count and Fallout's graphic design may have been 50's pulp inspired, but the in-game graphics themselves are fairly gritty. Rage had some color and some inventive art direction but still stuck to it's burnt out ruins. I can only assume your speaking out your ass, to put it mildly.

What criterion are you actually using that disqualifies Borderlands as an apocalyptic game? Cut off the occassional mention of space travel and it's a post-apo game through and through.

"The original Wasteland didn't really include any major stylisation in its portraits"
One, that's because art in the DOS games never had the range or ability to render "style" into it's sprites and, dude, This is a game where one of the first bosses is a mad farmer who controls a army of murderous rabbits in a field of oversize vegges and you want realism in the sequel.

First, the very fact that Wasteland featured detailed character/creature portraits invalidates the first point you raise. Second, what does the occassional wackiness in Wasteland's quest and area design have to do with the art style? Because if you want to be consistent, you ought to say that Fountain of Dreams completely insane setting and wacky art style were perfectly in line with WL and Killer Klowns wouldn't feel out of place in WL2.

"extremely realistic art style and gameplay are core features of ARMA"
ARMA is First person shooter build with the expressed purpose of simulating real military tactics and operations. Wasteland 2 is a Isometric Party based Crpg.
Trying to equate the two is far beyond overextending your reach. If you want realism in your Post-nuke video game, i can only prescribe S.T.A.L.K.E.R.

This thread discusses Wasteland 2's art style. I provide an example (admittedly from another genre) of how a realistic art style and approach to design with little stylisation can be used as a defining characteristic, without it feeling derivative. I don't really understand why you try to compare WL2 and ARMA gameplay wise.

[Comrade Snarky]

The idea of subtle coloring of significant factions of NPCs is a good idea on the fact that most conceptual artists take this in account in the stages of character design anyway.
"limits the ability to show detail in character models and textures in regular gameplay (dialogues etc. are a big unknown), then the defining characteristics should be composition, colour palette (which can be implemented in the way mentioned above), GUI aesthetic, lack of color correction"
Agreed. No argument there.
"Define the WL2 appearance and world not through an arbitrary art style, but through careful consideration of how the world and its appearances would change over the one hundred years that follow the War in 1998."
What i saw in wasteland one was not as much that it was set in a post-1998 nuclear warfare's after math as much as what a post-1998's nuclear warfare aftermath looked like from the 1980's. This line of thought is what brought us to the unanimous idea of late 80's/early 90's pulp sci-fi. I think this were our ideas conflict.
"Having a market saturated with only heavily stylized games is as bad as having it filled to the brim with pretentiously realistic ones."
I can hardly see how that would be a bad or even a foreseeable problem. Most heavily stylized games hardly move out of the XBLA these days. Most of the triple AAA titles take the realistic game route as they can afford the tech to simulate it properly and the fanbase that buys them tend to not be attracted to alternative color palettes beyond the drab. There is a narrow criteria of what a "Realistic" game looks like but a almost endless ways to "stylize" a game's look and i don't think we'll see people complaining about how different and varied all they're games look. Hell, once upon the time, that was the norm.
"What criterion are you actually using that disqualifies Borderlands as an apocalyptic game?"
The criterion of taking place on a earth that either has been plunged into a survivalist setting by a cataclysmic event. Borderlands simply took place on a desert planet and while the mechanics and details of the setting may be reminiscent of the post-apocalyptic genre, it still retains a lot of space western in it's self.
"what does the occasional wackiness in Wasteland's quest and area design have to do with the art style?"
Did you see the design of the farmer? and some of the more goofier looking portraits? (The 80's punk vandal and the diving helmet cop being two of them.) If the designs looked realistic and gritty it's because they didn't have the art assets to take the art into any farther stylization. Add to the fact that what looked Gritty and tough for a late 80's DOS game doesn't exactly translates into what could work now.
"I don't really understand why you try to compare WL2 and ARMA gameplay wise."
You'd mention that "Realistic art style and gameplay are core feature of ARMA" and thought that that applying that principle to a genre to simulate realism in rather structured game mechanics was a broad leap.
STALKER handled it's realism and it's art direction appropriately and well. If anything i'd love to see it's character and monster designs influence some sections of the art design for W2. But still, setting and tone differences still means drastically open ways to identify and move ahead with itself.

[Gizmo]

Personally, I'd like for Wasteland to be a realistic alternative to the usual over-the-top stylized post-apocalyptic game.

A grittily realistic aesthetic could be the defining feature of Wasteland's art style,

I can agree to a good extent with this; I also think the Heavy Metal is (or can be) perfect for this game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La_7KO1tn9o&
(Unfortunaely this clip is all that remains... I was shocked just how many of my Youtube Favorites have been deleted recently. Check yours, I bet you'll be shocked too.)

*This one shows a bit more of the style.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pw8fX3pYLFQ#t=01m00s

** Or are we talking the other Heavy Metal Style?

[homeslice82]

I don't want grittiness or grimdarkness. They've been done; they're old hat. I don't know if anyone's posted Arne's stuff in this thread yet, so I'll take the opportunity: http://diglett.blogspot.com/2012/03/wasteland-2.html

[MDF_MadDogFargo]

One, that's because art in the DOS games never had the range or ability to render "style" into it's sprites and, dude, This is a game where one of the first bosses is a mad farmer who controls a army of murderous rabbits in a field of oversize vegges and you want realism in the sequel.

Exactly.

[Hiver]

We are definitely not talking about Heavy Metal movies. I can tell you that much.

I don't want grittiness or grimdarkness. They've been done; they're old hat. I don't know if anyone's posted Arne's stuff in this thread yet, so I'll take the opportunity: http://diglett.blogspot.com/2012/03/wasteland-2.html

I mentioned it somewhere, maybe even here. Very nice indeed.

[Azriel]

I don't want cell shaded, cartoony, or cutesy art. I prefer a bit of grittiness and realism. I do think 80's influence on character design would be great, especially the 80's art design for heavy metal magazine, also the original shadowrun art feels about right(minus the magic bit).

[Tagaziel]

Forgive the quote column, it's easier to reply that way.

The idea of subtle coloring of significant factions of NPCs is a good idea on the fact that most conceptual artists take this in account in the stages of character design anyway.

I feel it's always a good idea to mention it, particularly since often it's easier to show social stratification by making the poor dirty and unshaven, while the rich are the opposite. Given that people in general like to be clean and neat (unless you're so far down you don't care, I've read an interesting article about a social experiment, where the man conducting it decided to become a bum for a month; after a week, he didn't care about the dirt and stench), colours could be a subtle, yet noticeable way to display social positions. As I said, everyone generally washes and tries to keep their clothes clean. However, as you move up the social ladder, the clothes become gradually more colourful and well made.

What i saw in wasteland one was not as much that it was set in a post-1998 nuclear warfare's after math as much as what a post-1998's nuclear warfare aftermath looked like from the 1980's. This line of thought is what brought us to the unanimous idea of late 80's/early 90's pulp sci-fi. I think this were our ideas conflict.

Back in 1988, the game was meant as a vision of a world ten years into the future, as Liz Danworth says:

*ahem* Wasteland is a post-apocalyptic world set in our near future. An animal infected with full-blown rabies can’t be saved in our world, today. With limited medical supplies and a trashed infrastructure, how in hell do you imagine you could possibly do anything but put a rabid dog out of its misery?

You never had to kill the kid, either. He’d throw himself at you, yes, but you’re playing a squad of big strong mega-weaponed Rangers! Grownups! Walk away. It’s not like you were chickenshit for backing down from some evil-hearted final boss bent on scourging the world and all you loved within it. It was a little boy.

True, if you passed through the area again, the kid would scream and yell and accuse you of terrible things — forever. But why would the boy forget the bad strangers who killed his beloved dog? He’d only asked you to help him.

You were never allowed to forget either.

I'm not totally against pulp sci-fi of the 1980s influencing the game, but rather than it becoming the defining characteristic and dominating art style, I'd rather see it being one of the many elements in a generally realistic art direction. There is plenty of time in the century that separates the War and the game for unique cultures to develop growing out of the 80s/90s culture. I may be wary of basing too much on the retrofuturistic aesthetic and style because of Fallout 3, which took the 1950s influence, turned it up to eleven and made the game absurd, far cry from the original, darkly humorous, yet serious nature. After Superhuman Gambit, the cannibals from Andale, and other elements haphazardly thrown in "because it's retrofuturistic!", I worry that the theme might dominate the game, rather than be the flavour it should be.

I can hardly see how that would be a bad or even a foreseeable problem. Most heavily stylized games hardly move out of the XBLA these days. Most of the triple AAA titles take the realistic game route as they can afford the tech to simulate it properly and the fanbase that buys them tend to not be attracted to alternative color palettes beyond the drab. There is a narrow criteria of what a "Realistic" game looks like but a almost endless ways to "stylize" a game's look and i don't think we'll see people complaining about how different and varied all they're games look. Hell, once upon the time, that was the norm.

I guess we operate on two different definitions of art style. I use the broad definition, which includes stylized games such as (in recent years) Dead Space, Syndicate, Deus Ex: Human Revolution, Brink, Tiberian Twilight etc. I yearn for what I mentioned above: a realistic approach to art style and design, portraying a world ten minutes into the future, with plausible looks to equipment that wouldn't look out of place. The US Army powered armor mockup posted in another thread is an example of what I'd feel appropriate.

And no color correction. That's one of the reasons why, despite my love for the game, DX:HR just doesn't click like it should.

The criterion of taking place on a earth that either has been plunged into a survivalist setting by a cataclysmic event. Borderlands simply took place on a desert planet and while the mechanics and details of the setting may be reminiscent of the post-apocalyptic genre, it still retains a lot of space western in it's self.

True. However, the aesthetic of the shantytowns, deserts filled with ruins, abandoned, decaying machinery has a lot in common with what is perceived as post-apocalyptic. That's one of the reasons I include Borderlands in my listing of post-apocalyptic art style. Most of the people are scavengers that live off Pandora's vast junkyards. Sound familiar?

Did you see the design of the farmer? and some of the more goofier looking portraits? (The 80's punk vandal and the diving helmet cop being two of them.) If the designs looked realistic and gritty it's because they didn't have the art assets to take the art into any farther stylization. Add to the fact that what looked Gritty and tough for a late 80's DOS game doesn't exactly translates into what could work now.

I'm not denying they exist. They are, however, a minority. Most of the character and mutant portraits retain the realistic look, for example, the bums, ozoners, Ranger radio sequences, snipers, scavengers etc. The more out-there/sci-fi additions are more effective thus, standing in stark contrast. The diving-bell policeman is, for me, a way of showing that he's, well, a robot in a human shape. Needles robocops, anyone?

You'd mention that "Realistic art style and gameplay are core feature of ARMA" and thought that that applying that principle to a genre to simulate realism in rather structured game mechanics was a broad leap. STALKER handled it's realism and it's art direction appropriately and well. If anything i'd love to see it's character and monster designs influence some sections of the art design for W2. But still, setting and tone differences still means drastically open ways to identify and move ahead with itself.

I meant it in a general sense, that high realism distinguish ARMA in gameplay and art style, though I forgot to mention that it was just an example of how a high realism principle can distinguish the game on the market, aesthetically and otherwise. Didn't mean to compare WL2 and ARMA gameplay-wise. I'd simply like for WL2 to employ high realism as a general principle in art direction, with 80s/90s pop culture and pulp sci-fi providing influence, but not becoming the sole driving force behind the art direction.

[Gizmo]

far cry from the original

Indeed ~also a Farcry from the original.

[Bryce777]

According to Gear Box Borderlands wasn't Cel Shaded.
http://kotaku.com/5206042/gearbox-borde ... cel+shaded

But he didn't say what it is

Yeah doesn't look cell shaded, which usually looks like crap.

This looks good but this whole suggestion is like saying "use shaders!". What will work for an overhead perspective is much different, and these guys know what they are doing so it's probably pointless to give such specific suggestion. Like saying what brush to use to a painter.

[moomoos]

I don't want grittiness or grimdarkness. They've been done; they're old hat. I don't know if anyone's posted Arne's stuff in this thread yet, so I'll take the opportunity: http://diglett.blogspot.com/2012/03/wasteland-2.html

Seriously, that looks like shit, it looks like something for a wii game.
Why would you want cute, child-looking cheerful graphics?

This game not only benefits from the art style of heavy metal and those grim looking 80's comics, this game NEEDS that look.

[hildiri]

I'm not quite aware of what has been used in Borderlands but I must admit it has very good-looking graphics & art style...