dmazz wrote:Simultaneous turns is a just a fancy way of saying really fast real time. It's a reversed form of Baldur's Gate combat. Instead of real time as the default position like in Baldurs Gate, your default position is paused. Also their combat does not have more depth than JA2/Silent Storm, less in my view.
I'm not so sure about that. This is way I see Wasteland combat playing out: You set up the actions in the combat phase and then the actions play out at the time that the computer rolls the dice. It isn't very fast real time. [...]
dmazz wrote:By emulate do you mean lie? Cause that's what it sounds like. By definition Wasteland (and any other stat and die roll based game) cannot portray simultaneous combat which taken for it's full meaning implies absolute real time.
If you kill an enemy before they begin to fire then they don't get a shot off. But if you kill an enemy at the same time as they fire, they get a shot off. If a slower character aims and fires at your last position, you might not be there when the bullets arrive because you moved while they were aiming.
So although you are right that the game can't truly portray simultaneity, I don't think that's because of a stat roll game can't envision it. Indeed the most simple combat, like in a Civ combat, represents simultaneous defense and offense. Wasteland does its best to make things look like they are all happening at relatively the same time (in other words, 'emulating' it).
dmazz wrote:Yes I know it's not real time. When I say 'real time' I mean Baldur's Gate real time combat (As it is known). Everything looks real time but the numbers are still being crunched behind the scenes.
Baldur's Gate combat reversed explains everything about Wasteland combat. It's not a mystery, simultaneous combat too. In baldur's gate you can dodge an arrow, in wasteland you can fire on someone who's already dead. Same thing.
I'm not sure that I completely understand your comparison between Wasteland and Baldur's Gate "reversed." Can you please elaborate?
I haven't played Baldur's Gate (always wanted to, never had time) but I'm imagining (correct me if I'm wrong) something like Ultima 7 (for example) or an RTS game. Actually Freedom Force/Vs the Third Reich has a slow down/pause option with real-time commands and you can treat the paused game like a command phase. I'm imagining something like that.
What's different about WL is that there is no in-time milieu. The RT game has to calculate what the next moment in time
will look like so that it can update the player every frame
of the game whether anything happens or not. But Wasteland updates the player when the action happens
. "Time" (in combat) is, as it were, inexistent, not frozen. Nothing happens in the acton phase without your input, your direction; and nothing is waiting to happen between action phases (your opponents act in the same frame of reference).
I think this could work in a game with isometric view, etc. that Brian Fargo has described. To wit: Your party encounters an enemy. You choose your commands (for the whole phase) and the actions play out one change in the action
at a time whether that's one hit, or miss, or two hits at once, whatever the dice roll is. You watch the characters fire their ranged weapons, or rush the enemy in HtH, or evade, or whatever. Every change in the action is presented graphically, but not necessarily every moment of time. Speed is the reference, not time; time is that thing that is relative to faster or slower characters (nobody has an external clock). Some actions like very fast running, rapidfire or multiple melee attacks, might be pictured as a blur.
dmazz wrote:That type of combat is also the slowest available, highly unlikely they will choose it for Wasteland 2.
Please explain. Why is simultaneous combat the slowest available? I would think it's the fastest. It plays out instantaneously in Wasteland. I do not think you can get any faster than instantaneous.
dmazz wrote:Wasteland (and Frozen Synapse) are the slowest combat available due to duplication of actions and movement. In a turn based and real time combat system, when the player performs an action or movement they only do it once, and see the results at the same time. In Wasteland and Frozen Synapse, one performs a movement and action once, then sees it again after they end their turn. Sure it's in real time and somewhat sped up but it's still a duplication, which slows down combat. (keeping in mind Wasteland is text based combat, visual combat takes more time) Although it depends on how optimized for speed each combat system is, user interface, control system, A.i player character help, stuff like that.
Ah, but the TB/RT system doesn't show you commmand and movement at the same time
. There's always a command/movement separation. IMO, the difference (to that) from phase-based simultaneous combat is the number
of commands you issue and the number
of pieces you order at once, and the consequent number of moves you see. In simultaneous combat, you get to see more actions played out, faster; IMO the moves don't exactly duplicate the commands, because your plans might be interrupted or thwarted. It's the difference between playing football one player at a time or playing via football strategies. Your characters huddle together and decide what to do, then they all act accordingly. Even in this frame of reference, they can act individually, depending on contingency situations like injuries; faster characters can re-aim their attacks at slower characters.
krellen wrote:Actually, if your target died before your turn in Wasteland, you just skipped your turn.
That's always a potential result in this knd of combat; I remember early NES RPGs (and maybe Wizardry too?) had a problem with wasted moves. Most later games let your characters contribute something (attack a different enemy, etc.), if their target is missing.