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Party Dialogue and Character-Based Responses

Suggestions for what Wasteland 2 should or could include.

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Re: Robust Party Conversation System

Postby alanschu » April 5th, 2012, 5:42 pm

krellen wrote:This was, in fact, the specific example I had in mind when I said 20, actually. :P


Then I am confused.

There's a very specific reason why this particular response has an abnormally large amount of dialogue options. On top of the primary story telling mechanic, it's also more possible given that the responses are exceptionally lightweight and, from the standpoint of progressing through the conversation, irrelevant.

I feel that doing something like this more frequently runs the risk of bogging the game player down with excessive choice that ultimately has little impact on anything. It also undermines the situations in the narrative where having a large amount of choices DOES have a strong reason for existing. Furthermore, the more verbose the responses get, the more difficult it will become to parse and read for the player. Finally, it also contributes to writer fatigue during content creation.
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Re: Robust Party Conversation System

Postby krellen » April 5th, 2012, 5:55 pm

alanschu wrote:
krellen wrote:This was, in fact, the specific example I had in mind when I said 20, actually. :P


Then I am confused.

That's because you're viewing "20" as a concrete, absolute suggestion and not simply a hyperbolic hypothetical. I wanted a number that would be more choices than any single character was ever given, and I'm pretty sure that list of response to "What can change the nature of a man" is the longest string of choice in any game ever.
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Re: Robust Party Conversation System

Postby alanschu » April 5th, 2012, 11:22 pm

That's because you're viewing "20" as a concrete, absolute suggestion and not simply a hyperbolic hypothetical. I wanted a number that would be more choices than any single character was ever given, and I'm pretty sure that list of response to "What can change the nature of a man" is the longest string of choice in any game ever.


I'm using 20 in the same hyperbolic sense that you are. I explicitly stated that I'm skeptical that we'll see anything that goes significantly beyond what we saw in the games of the 90s, because there was little that was restricting those games from having more choices than they did when comparing it to Fargo's project.


And yeah, the response to Ravel is probably the longest string of choice in any game ever. It's done because the sequence needed to stress that you could literally say anything to Ravel. All she cared about is what YOUR answer was, whatever it was, and that is not portrayed as clearly when you have fewer dialogue options. In the end, it all led to the same result in the conversation though.

If you're expecting more situations where fluff responses exist that serve no functional difference in how the conversation/plot proceeds, and exist simply for pure roleplaying (i.e. I want a hostile response because ants are in my pants, as well as I want a hostile response because someone peed in my cornflakes), I think you're setting your sights a little high for the same reasons that it didn't happen in the other old school style games that WL2 is a throwback to. It's only going to be jarring if it isn't consistently done, and it's going to cause writer fatigue as they spend time coming up with additional dialogue responses for the player responses that have limited function. All the while understanding that time spent writing this is time NOT spent writing other content.


I'm fine to agree to disagree, but I'm skeptical that extra responses purely for roleplay will exist in a meaningful way.
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Re: Robust Party Conversation System

Postby krellen » April 6th, 2012, 4:15 am

For a more concrete example, in Storm of Zehir, I think there have been as many as 10 - possibly slightly more - choices for certain dialogues (and not just one time like Ravel) depending on certain features. There would be a standard "Yes, I'll do it" response, a standard "No thanks" response, a "Tell me more" response, three "Pay me better" responses based off Bluff, Intimidation or Diplomacy (generally led to the same place, but some people would react poorly to certain tactics), a "go stick it to yourself" Chaotic response, a "that's what duty demands" Lawful response, a "what's in it for me" Evil response, and a "it's for the greater good" Good response. Obviously no single character could possibly have all those choices available to them. There were even a few times when race (though mostly only Yuan-Ti) gave a dialogue option.
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Re: Robust Party Conversation System

Postby clippedwolf » April 7th, 2012, 3:00 pm

I'm just going to throw in my support for the idea of a 'robust party conversation system', it was one of my favorite features in NWN2:SoZ.
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Re: Robust Party Conversation System

Postby berkus » April 9th, 2012, 12:13 pm

stonetoes wrote:Another option would be to restrict it two PCs. After all, it's supposed to be good cop/bad cop, not good cop/bad cop/funny cop/sexy cop/muscly cop/shooty cop.


Could be more interesting, some NPCs would simply speak to anyone in your group who addresses them (or address somebody else entirely based on their own preference), but some NPCs might refuse to talk to everyone at once and either ask you to provide a representative or pick someone themselves ("Hey, hey, don't speak all at once, this isn't a bazaar! You, hotshot, come up and talk to me!")
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Re: Robust Party Conversation System

Postby cantfind » April 9th, 2012, 12:41 pm

What about in-party conversations?
When a group of people undergo intense experiences tension and passion are bound to rise.
I think some dialogues should be dynamically triggered between the PCs after tough choices or losses, or in a more lighthearted fashion some funny remarks on the situation :)
Maybe Baldure's Gate 2 style, where the leader of the party is in our control and the others have predetermined personalities (in which case, It would be better to make them intervene in NPC dialogue by themselves if they see fit).
Or make the whole party in our control (sort of like talking to ourselves..) but each PC remembers it's dialogue choices, and thus develop it's character - the game would learn who the joker is, who the cynic is, who the leader is... maybe there could be some romance between the party members too.. it also might impact the way the PCs interact with NPCs affecting their dialogue options.

It might be a bit over the top, I know, but this would make it the best game ever made if it could be done IMO.
What do you think?
Should I open a new thread on this subject? I thought it might be appropriate here...
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Re: Robust Party Conversation System

Postby ffordesoon » April 9th, 2012, 12:55 pm

Uh, yo, hold up–

Balls. Already said it, didn't he?
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
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Re: Robust Party Conversation System

Postby berkus » April 9th, 2012, 9:50 pm

cantfind wrote:What about in-party conversations?


In Planescape: Torment in-party conversation was actually valuable source of XP, lots of it :)
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Re: Robust Party Conversation System

Postby alanschu » April 9th, 2012, 11:00 pm

Does it make sense to have an in party conversation with (presumably) a mostly generated party?
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Re: Robust Party Conversation System

Postby hatchetman82 » April 10th, 2012, 12:50 am

alanschu wrote:Does it make sense to have an in party conversation with (presumably) a mostly generated party?

the rangers might be randomly generated, but the NPCs probbaly wont be (i think?)
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Re: Robust Party Conversation System

Postby Proton Axeman » April 10th, 2012, 2:22 am

hatchetman82 wrote:
alanschu wrote:Does it make sense to have an in party conversation with (presumably) a mostly generated party?

the rangers might be randomly generated, but the NPCs probbaly wont be (i think?)


There will probably a be a considerable number of recruitable NPCs, more than most RPGs, if the first game was anything to go by. This means that party composition is far less predictable than your typical highly linear RPG where your party composition becomes basically set modulo perhaps hiring a mercenary that'll only stick with you until the next town/zone.

Even in the first game, off-hand I count
- Jackie
- Felicia
- Mayor Pedro
- Danny Citrine
- Christina
- Ace
- Covenant
- Mad Dog Fargo
- Metal Maniac
- Red Hawk
- VAX

competing for what would typically be three NPC slots (if you were running four PCs and never cloned anybody) = most of which could be theoretically recruited out of their natural order (although you were likely to run into Jackie quite early, and would not run into VAX until the endgame) and which generally could be kept until death if you wanted.
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Re: Robust Party Conversation System

Postby cantfind » April 10th, 2012, 7:26 am

Proton Axeman wrote:
hatchetman82 wrote:
alanschu wrote:Does it make sense to have an in party conversation with (presumably) a mostly generated party?

the rangers might be randomly generated, but the NPCs probbaly wont be (i think?)


There will probably a be a considerable number of recruitable NPCs, more than most RPGs, if the first game was anything to go by. This means that party composition is far less predictable than your typical highly linear RPG where your party composition becomes basically set modulo perhaps hiring a mercenary that'll only stick with you until the next town/zone.

Even in the first game, off-hand I count
- Jackie
- Felicia
- Mayor Pedro
- Danny Citrine
- Christina
- Ace
- Covenant
- Mad Dog Fargo
- Metal Maniac
- Red Hawk
- VAX

competing for what would typically be three NPC slots (if you were running four PCs and never cloned anybody) = most of which could be theoretically recruited out of their natural order (although you were likely to run into Jackie quite early, and would not run into VAX until the endgame) and which generally could be kept until death if you wanted.


Baldure's gate had
- Imoen
- Jaheira
- Minsc
- Yoshimo
- Aerie
- Nalia
- Anomen
- Viconia
- Korgan
- Valygar
- Cernd
- Haerdalis
- Edwin
- Jan
- Keldorn
- Mazzy

each had many in-party conversation, they annoyed one another, had personal quests and depth..
Dragon Age had a little smaller collection, and the conversations were mostly initiated by the player, but compared to what we get in these days it's commendable.
I also loved the in-party dialogue in Planescape.
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Re: Robust Party Conversation System

Postby cantfind » April 10th, 2012, 7:29 am

ffordesoon wrote:Uh, yo, hold up–

Balls. Already said it, didn't he?


Sorry, must have missed it :)
I would search for it now..

Edit: Couldn't find it... can you send me the link?
Last edited by cantfind on April 10th, 2012, 7:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Robust Party Conversation System

Postby Infinitron » April 10th, 2012, 7:34 am

cantfind wrote:
Baldure's gate had
- Imoen
- Jaheira
- Minsc
- Yoshimo
- Aerie
- Nalia
- Anomen
- Viconia
- Korgan
- Valygar
- Cernd
- Haerdalis
- Edwin
- Jan
- Keldorn
- Mazzy

each had many in-party conversation, they annoyed one another, had personal quests and depth..
Dragon Age had a little smaller collection, and the conversations were mostly initiated by the player, but compared to what we get in these days it's commendable.
I also loved the in-party dialogue in Planescape.


That's Baldur's Gate 2. Baldur's Gate had many more companions than that. They didn't have much to say, although many of them had some quests you had to do or they'd leave you.

I think Wasteland 2 will be good if it's somewhere in between BG1 and BG2 in terms of NPC interaction. Not sure if they should bring them to BG2 level - it may not be worth it, considering that they are merely additions on top of your ranger party.
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Re: Robust Party Conversation System

Postby cantfind » April 10th, 2012, 7:41 am

Infinitron wrote:
cantfind wrote:
Baldure's gate had
- Imoen
- Jaheira
- Minsc
- Yoshimo
- Aerie
- Nalia
- Anomen
- Viconia
- Korgan
- Valygar
- Cernd
- Haerdalis
- Edwin
- Jan
- Keldorn
- Mazzy

each had many in-party conversation, they annoyed one another, had personal quests and depth..
Dragon Age had a little smaller collection, and the conversations were mostly initiated by the player, but compared to what we get in these days it's commendable.
I also loved the in-party dialogue in Planescape.


That's Baldur's Gate 2. Baldur's Gate had many more companions than that. They didn't have much to say, although many of them had some quests you had to do or they'd leave you.

I think Wasteland 2 will be good if it's somewhere in between BG1 and BG2 in terms of NPC interaction. Not sure if they should bring them to BG2 level - it may not be worth it, considering that they are merely additions on top of your ranger party.


I meant BG 2 :) (because as you say, BG did not have that much depth to its NPC's)
I can live with less recruitable NPC's, even a handful, or non at all...
My point was that it was possible to achieve deep in party conversations even with that many possible combinations of party members.
Quantity is much less important then quality IMO.
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Re: Robust Party Conversation System

Postby Sub-Human » April 10th, 2012, 1:59 pm

This idea is quite interesting. Although I do believe that the party should speak for the Rangers overall as opposed to themselves.
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Who Does The Talking?

Postby nathanknaack » April 11th, 2012, 11:34 am

Here's the pitch: When you get into a social encounter, you don't pick canned lines of dialog. Instead, you just pick one of your characters to "do the talking" for the group.

They key to this system is picking personality archetypes for your rangers during character creation. Stuff like: Bold, noble, tricky, greedy, crazy, sadist, protector, gentleman, etc.

There are two obvious ways to "game" this system:

A) Try to diversity your party as much as possible so you can deal with a variety of situations. This gives you a nice A-Team style game, where B.A. intimidates the thugs, Hannibal banters with the villain, Murdoch mystifies the authorities, and Face sweet talks the ladies. Socially, your team is a Swiss army knife.

B) Stack your party with like-minded personalities. The benefit here (mechanically) is that you really rock in certain situations. In an encounter where a "noble" style personality might get a good result, the party full of noble characters would get an amazing result. The bandit city doesn't just let you live; they declare you the new kings! You still pick one character to "do the talking" in each situation, but all the other guys totally back him up so the effect is much greater. Socially, your team is a machete.
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Re: Who Does The Talking?

Postby Infinitron » April 11th, 2012, 12:02 pm

nathanknaack wrote:They key to this system is picking personality archetypes for your rangers during character creation. Stuff like: Bold, noble, tricky, greedy, crazy, sadist, protector, gentleman, etc.


Or you can have skills like "Bluff", "Intimidate" and "Diplomacy" which allow you to do pretty much the same things.

It's something to think about, though.
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Re: Who Does The Talking?

Postby cantfind » April 11th, 2012, 12:11 pm

nathanknaack wrote:Here's the pitch: When you get into a social encounter, you don't pick canned lines of dialog. Instead, you just pick one of your characters to "do the talking" for the group.

They key to this system is picking personality archetypes for your rangers during character creation. Stuff like: Bold, noble, tricky, greedy, crazy, sadist, protector, gentleman, etc.

There are two obvious ways to "game" this system:

A) Try to diversity your party as much as possible so you can deal with a variety of situations. This gives you a nice A-Team style game, where B.A. intimidates the thugs, Hannibal banters with the villain, Murdoch mystifies the authorities, and Face sweet talks the ladies. Socially, your team is a Swiss army knife.

B) Stack your party with like-minded personalities. The benefit here (mechanically) is that you really rock in certain situations. In an encounter where a "noble" style personality might get a good result, the party full of noble characters would get an amazing result. The bandit city doesn't just let you live; they declare you the new kings! You still pick one character to "do the talking" in each situation, but all the other guys totally back him up so the effect is much greater. Socially, your team is a machete.


I'm totally for the idea that each of your party members has his own personality.

Also, I agree there should be a speaker who does the main talking, but if he says something which another party member really disagrees with, the other one will cut in on the conversation.
Or if one is more perceptive to lies, he should intervene if he thinks the main speaker doesn't see he's being lied to.

And a penalty for having to opposing archetypes should be arguments between the party members (possibly even making one of them leave the party eventually if the others agree with one of them too much).
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