Inventory UI

[deus]

Well, Arcanum did have a button which let you organize your loot vertically or horizontally. In my opinion, with a few tweaks here and there, it could be just perfect.

DX:HR also had it, it not only made only the looting portion boring, it also messed up everything all over and you had to re-find stuff you want to use, the only redeeming quality of tetris in DX:HR - it had very few items.

Arcanum had shitloads of useful items, and the tetris "challenge" gone from "challenging" to "waste of time and boredom" at about the second time you've got inventory filled and you had to hunt and peck what to drop(because icons there hardly represent the item, even at endgame when you're familiar with some item graphics, in addition to the fact it randomly messed up item order as it pleased).

I hope WL2 will have lots of useful items, and inventory screen that's worth opening for something other than picking a different gun, but at the same time go with the less annoying weight-inventory rather than tetris play.

Sorry but this is on its the head, how is being faced with decisions in this context more boring then just a Grab All Button, and a 200 entry long list with a sort,scroll,scroll,scroll...

equipment being limited by is perfectly reasonable for any game, but what you basically is asking is for it to be easier to grab everything which can help you.


What really confounds me is how the scrounging dilemmas are more boring...while vacuuming the landscape is not.

Also...it comes a time when you reached your humongous limit, with 500 items to sort "scroll" through that is a much more annoying process then a 1-3 minutes simple sorting once in a while, which also can provide some challenging choices in what you must leave or toss.

[Canageek]

Well, Arcanum did have a button which let you organize your loot vertically or horizontally. In my opinion, with a few tweaks here and there, it could be just perfect.

DX:HR also had it, it not only made only the looting portion boring, it also messed up everything all over and you had to re-find stuff you want to use, the only redeeming quality of tetris in DX:HR - it had very few items.

Arcanum had shitloads of useful items, and the tetris "challenge" gone from "challenging" to "waste of time and boredom" at about the second time you've got inventory filled and you had to hunt and peck what to drop(because icons there hardly represent the item, even at endgame when you're familiar with some item graphics, in addition to the fact it randomly messed up item order as it pleased).

I hope WL2 will have lots of useful items, and inventory screen that's worth opening for something other than picking a different gun, but at the same time go with the less annoying weight-inventory rather than tetris play.

Sorry but this is on its the head, how is being faced with decisions in this context more boring then just a Grab All Button, and a 200 entry long list with a sort,scroll,scroll,scroll...

equipment being limited by is perfectly reasonable for any game, but what you basically is asking is for it to be easier to grab everything which can help you.


What really confounds me is how the scrounging dilemmas are more boring...while vacuuming the landscape is not.

Also...it comes a time when you reached your humongous limit, with 500 items to sort "scroll" through that is a much more annoying process then a 1-3 minutes simple sorting once in a while, which also can provide some challenging choices in what you must leave or toss.

Because those of us with poor visual-spacial memory get screwed by it, and finding the right item is a pain, whereas with a list based system you can have filters (I want to see all Aid items, all weapons, etc), which, in most games, is far less then hundreds. Skyrim being the exception here; Even Fallout 3 didn't have hugely unmanageable lists.

[suz]

What really confounds me is how the scrounging dilemmas are more boring...while vacuuming the landscape is not.

Vacuuming? How many items you carried in DX:HR? 10? It was already annoying, even with so little, to go through them after you had to press sort button(unless you wanna play tetris, which I didn't) to pick up that RPG for the boss fight. And the only reason you couldn't pick up that RPG because a "square" was occupied by oddly placed chocolate bar...

[Woolfe]

What really confounds me is how the scrounging dilemmas are more boring...while vacuuming the landscape is not.

Vacuuming? How many items you carried in DX:HR? 10? It was already annoying, even with so little, to go through them after you had to press sort button(unless you wanna play tetris, which I didn't) to pick up that RPG for the boss fight. And the only reason you couldn't pick up that RPG because a "square" was occupied by oddly placed chocolate bar...

That IS annoying. If you have enough squares in your backpack, even if they are spread all over, then you should be able to fit it in. The Jam it in no matter what theory. The space is there, its just not going to look pretty!!

[ffordesoon]

Yes. Auto-sort is essential, inventory Tetris or otherwise.

[deus]

What really confounds me is how the scrounging dilemmas are more boring...while vacuuming the landscape is not.

Vacuuming? How many items you carried in DX:HR? 10? It was already annoying, even with so little, to go through them after you had to press sort button(unless you wanna play tetris, which I didn't) to pick up that RPG for the boss fight. And the only reason you couldn't pick up that RPG because a "square" was occupied by oddly placed chocolate bar...

But it didn't have any inventory limitations either except BULK! Auto-sort were annoying because it didn't take size into limitation so really it was rather pointless.

They didn't make the inventory amorphous because they were trying to keep the player from dragging around every kind heavy weapon they would come across.

If you find that kind of implementation of inventory constraint annoying, do you think checking the weight of every item when you need to be unencumbered is any better?(in a single item slot inventory or list based inventory)

[deus]

Because those of us with poor visual-spacial memory get screwed by it, and finding the right item is a pain, whereas with a list based system you can have filters (I want to see all Aid items, all weapons, etc), which, in most games, is far less then hundreds. Skyrim being the exception here; Even Fallout 3 didn't have hugely unmanageable lists.

Dragon Age(worst offender of the lot), Oblivion and Skyrim, Fallout3/NV...all had to much carry capacities and items to fill said capacity!
The categorization helped very little, scrolling to find the Aid boosters for a certain effect in fallout always resulted in a scrolling session.
And when equipping a weapon(which you did often), you had in best of times a list with 15 entries, grenades, detonators and the 5 different variation of the laser rifle you dragged along to sell.

But as i mentioned above my biggest gripe is when you need to deal with your equipment constraints, when you finally hit the very high limit you had tons of different items which weighted differently, or worse did have any weight at all so they became non-sequiters when doing an inventory.

The original fallouts had an annoying inventory...did not even have a category button, but they did two things right.

The most elegant thing they did was to sort the items based on use.
but mostly they didnt have tons of custom weapons and items which you felt you had to drag with(a problem when they make high value items so common for the players).

[Drool]

The most elegant thing they did was to sort the items based on use.

No they didn't. Fallout's inventory was sorted by the order in which you picked up an item. Which meant mid-to-late game keys were always at the bottom of the inventory.

[suz]

Oblivion and Skyrim, Fallout3/NV...
always resulted in a scrolling session...

Had their UI clearly designed for consoles by a company notorious for shit UI design. You take the horse that's been beaten to pulp and kick it again.
If you play on console - you signed up for it, if you play on PC - there's shitloads of mods which fix the UI, they're also surprisingly among the top 5-10 by download count and rating on various modding sites.

best of times a list with 15 entries, grenades, detonators and the 5 different variation...

I carried my main rifle, gun for close ups(SMG/Shotgun), the ammo for them and stimpacks, no scrolling there. Didn't use drugs either, but if I had then UI mod is the first thing I'd download.

tons of different items which weighted differently

What's the problem with that? Should we have neutered "tetris" similar to D3 which is pretty much a list except it comes with all the drawbacks of tetris?

or worse did have any weight at all so they became non-sequiters when doing an inventory.

So don't pay attention to them or drop? You don't have to loot everything, all the games you listed had junk with high value/weight ratio which encouraged you to pick up junk instead of weapons/armor which had lower V/W.

but mostly they didnt have tons of custom weapons and items which you felt you had to drag with(a problem when they make high value items so common for the players).

If they had more items then they'd make the inventory more accessible than the wannabe-tetris-but-no-grid-list-kind-of-thing.

Carrying lots of items is FINE, we have a party of 7 to supply.
Having lots of items in game is FINE, it's a post apocalyptic RPG, not HKO.
Having shitty UI (and tetris in my book IS a shitty UI for more than 5-10 items at a time) for inventory is NOT FINE.
Having shitty UI which forces you to go into inventory every time you loot something because you need to place it at a certain X,Y square so it won't disrupt next item looting is NOT FINE.

What exactly are you envisioning for the inventory to contain? If it's more than 20 distinct items at a time then tetris is going to be a PITA - Considering we have 7 rangers to supply I'd expect it to be far more than 20 when including ammo, backup guns, drugs, med/repair kits, grenades/mines/explosives/disposables, keys/passcards, and the loot you're gonna sell in the nearest city.

[deus]

The most elegant thing they did was to sort the items based on use.

No they didn't. Fallout's inventory was sorted by the order in which you picked up an item. Which meant mid-to-late game keys were always at the bottom of the inventory.

My memory erred a bit, ... if the item is stacked using them In the inventory does not move them up(or more correctly down...newest items is on top)
But when you unequip items those are placed at the bottom.

At any rate, my weapon tab in F3 was longer then all my combined inventory in F1, which is why i think the simple list interface was bearable.

This this points to that the main problem not with how the inventory is organized, but how the system accomedates an inflation of generic "special" items and weaponry.


suz:

"So don't pay attention to them or drop? You don't have to loot everything, all the games you listed had junk with high value/weight ratio which encouraged you to pick up junk instead of weapons/armor which had lower V/W."

No I did not pick up every burnt book i came across and my point was doing reading from list to find what to chuck then X number of quest items, magazines and food stuff do add to the bother of figuring out what is shit. Not to mention I carry with me several Items with both Weight and Value which was thrown at me.
Point i was trying to make is that the inventory threshold is so large then you DO hit max you have exactly what you complain about grid/bulk layouts, only time x10.



As for W2, or what i prefer...simple...grid(single slot) with weights, 1 grid per Char.

But spare me the aggravating list based party inventory from Kotor and DA.

[Drool]

But when you unequip items those are placed at the bottom.

Yes. Also known as "the least useful location".

At any rate, my weapon tab in F3 was longer then all my combined inventory in F1, which is why i think the simple list interface was bearable.

...then carry fewer guns. I ran a character through New Vegas without any difficulty, using about four different weapons. And since I only had four weapons and could hotkey up to 7, I never needed to open my weapons inventory except to repair or rekey them after going into casinos. Any inventory system is going to have problems if you insist on carrying hundreds of different items. A dedicated packrat is always going to have problems with the inventory UI, regardless of what method is used.

This this points to that the main problem not with how the inventory is organized, but how the system accomedates an inflation of generic "special" items and weaponry.

Then that's an argument about unique weapons and a general glut of items. Pretty irrelevant to a discussion about the inventory UI. Especially if WL2 follows in Wasteland's footsteps and keeps the gun porn to a minimum.

As for W2, or what i prefer...simple...grid(single slot) with weights, 1 grid per Char.

If you insist on picking up every weapon you stumble across, how on earth is inventory tetris going to make things any easier?

And, you know, every time I mentioned tetris with item weight, I did it to mock people obsessed with realism. I never imagined that anyone would actually want such a monster.

[Zombra]

Haven't really been following the conversation, but I do agree with deus about one thing: having a tightly restricted carrying capacity is a good thing. Being able to carry 1000 pounds of stuff from the beginning conditions you to pick up everything, and then when your "tank" fills up, suddenly you have a huge micromanagement problem on your shoulders for the rest of the game.

If you can only carry a small (dare I say "realistic") amount of gear, then right from the start the game rewards you for being careful about what you schlep. Water or cigarettes? Choose wisely.

Whether it's Tetris, a paper doll with pockets, a list with a weight limit, or even Wasteland's "8 items per character, that's it", I don't care. Just keep our inventory lean and mean.

[Canageek]

If I were scavenging over the wastes and could only carry a little I would get a mule or camel or soivelymething. Just saying, if your livelyhood is carrying stuff back to town you are going to do everything you can to carry more.

[Zombra]

Just saying, gameplay > realism

I hope the mission statement of DR isn't "Desert Rangers: We Who Carry Stuff Back To Town".

[Drool]

Whether it's Tetris, a paper doll with pockets, a list with a weight limit, or even Wasteland's "8 items per character, that's it", I don't care. Just keep our inventory lean and mean.

Well, yes. Rather obviously. But as this thread is called "inventory UI", I'm assuming it's for arg^H^H^Hdiscussing the merits of various different methods of inventory management.

Personally, I fall on the KISS end of things, so prefer just a list with a weight limit. Wasteland's method worked well enough, but I don't think anyone would accept that in this day and age in a non-JRPG throwback game. I mean, it worked well enough for Dragon Warrior 9, but...

[Zombra]

Just keep our inventory lean and mean.

Well, yes. Rather obviously. But as this thread is called "inventory UI", I'm assuming it's for arg^H^H^Hdiscussing the merits of various different methods of inventory management.

Yeah. My point: inventory bloat is bad, so whatever general method is used, the specific scale should be small, preferably a lot smaller than we are used to with modern RPGs. I think that's a relevant contribution

[Canageek]

Haven't really been following the conversation, but I do agree with deus about one thing: having a tightly restricted carrying capacity is a good thing. Being able to carry 1000 pounds of stuff from the beginning conditions you to pick up everything, and then when your "tank" fills up, suddenly you have a huge micromanagement problem on your shoulders for the rest of the game.

If you can only carry a small (dare I say "realistic") amount of gear, then right from the start the game rewards you for being careful about what you schlep. Water or cigarettes? Choose wisely.

Whether it's Tetris, a paper doll with pockets, a list with a weight limit, or even Wasteland's "8 items per character, that's it", I don't care. Just keep our inventory lean and mean.

The definition of 'Realistic' could be quite high then; Look at how much a British Redcoat or Roman Legionnaire would carry (I've sent out a question to find out exactly how much.)

Just saying, gameplay > realism

I hope the mission statement of DR isn't "Desert Rangers: We Who Carry Stuff Back To Town".

Just keep our inventory lean and mean.

Well, yes. Rather obviously. But as this thread is called "inventory UI", I'm assuming it's for arg^H^H^Hdiscussing the merits of various different methods of inventory management.

Yeah. My point: inventory bloat is bad, so whatever general method is used, the specific scale should be small, preferably a lot smaller than we are used to with modern RPGs. I think that's a relevant contribution

I think part of this comes from where you started Post-Apoc. I started with Andre Norton's excellent 'Daybreak 2250" (Also known as Star Man's Son, by Andrew North), which has at its heart, the quest to find useful supplies for his town, and exploring a ruined city, and finding such things as canned food, pencils and paper. Simple things that would improve life back home. I've long wanted to see this in PA games, so I often pretended that when I sold teddy bears to Moria she would go and give them to children and such. Not that I changed my looting habits because of this...much.

Another novel that is kinda similar in opening would be "The Postman" by David Brin, where he discusses looting and how essential small items can be.

I think most people here are from more of the action-movie post-apoc background, Mad Max and such.

[Zombra]

The definition of 'Realistic' could be quite high then; Look at how much a British Redcoat or Roman Legionnaire would carry (I've sent out a question to find out exactly how much.)

Not to be glib, but I don't care. Like I keep saying, I only care about good gameplay. (Which for me includes a minimum of trash digging.)

I think part of this comes from where you started Post-Apoc. I started with Andre Norton's excellent 'Daybreak 2250" (Also known as Star Man's Son, by Andrew North), which has at its heart, the quest to find useful supplies for his town, and exploring a ruined city, and finding such things as canned food, pencils and paper. Simple things that would improve life back home. I've long wanted to see this in PA games, so I often pretended that when I sold teddy bears to Moria she would go and give them to children and such. Not that I changed my looting habits because of this...much.

Another novel that is kinda similar in opening would be "The Postman" by David Brin, where he discusses looting and how essential small items can be.

I think most people here are from more of the action-movie post-apoc background, Mad Max and such.

Including the devs, I hope. If Wasteland 2 tries to make me excited when I find a broken pencil, I will uninstall so fast that Earth will spin the other way. Shortly after that I will be heading towards wherever inXile studios is with a can of gasoline.

[suz]

Dare I say I wish this game to be RPG, not action adventure, so I'd like a proper inventory and sweet loot to fill it

[Drool]

I think part of this comes from where you started Post-Apoc. I started with Andre Norton's excellent 'Daybreak 2250" (Also known as Star Man's Son, by Andrew North), which has at its heart, the quest to find useful supplies for his town, and exploring a ruined city, and finding such things as canned food, pencils and paper.

I don't remember the first one I read, but one that sticks out in my mind is Lucifer's Hammer. Of course, it's set just before the apocalypse and then the events immediately following.