Weapon wear and damage

[pablo]

All machines and tools eventually break down. Weapons need to be properly maintained and when they break finding parts to repair them might just be impossible.

I'd love to see some weapon wear and damage in the wasteland.

-pablo

[CaptainPatch]

Doing simple maintenance quickly gets tiresome and tedious = less fun. Something as simple as Fallout 3-style equipment repair (merging same or similar items to make ONE better condition item) would be tolerable, but pointedly less realistic. (No time is lost in the process.) I'd take loss of realism over tedium.

[pablo]

Doing simple maintenance quickly gets tiresome and tedious = less fun. Something as simple as Fallout 3-style equipment repair (merging same or similar items to make ONE better condition item) would be tolerable, but pointedly less realistic. (No time is lost in the process.) I'd take loss of realism over tedium.

A fine point for sure. Simple maintenance is tedious. FO3 did solve that tedium "just ok". The part that was exiting with the system is that your weapons would become sloppy and may even stop working in the middle of a firefight. The added level of excitement, your weapon jamming in the middle of combat, forcing a change in strategy I think could be brought in to wasteland with a "fun" effect.

[Rink]

in a singleplayergame where you have only one person to manage, it is ok to have weapons that run out and that you have to repair them. But if you manage more than one person in your party, then you will have enough work with not letting your guys run out of ammo.

If it still decided to make weapons have a condition bar, just make it easy to repair them even if you want to repair it with parts of a gun another party member is holding. Realism (you first have to walk over and exchange the weapons in a barter screen to the person that is able to repair the weapon, then this person has to repair them and then give it back to the person) is a lot of frustrating work and this only for maintaining what you already have. I would not like that, would you?

[pablo]

in a singleplayergame where you have only one person to manage, it is ok to have weapons that run out and that you have to repair them. But if you manage more than one person in your party, then you will have enough work with not letting your guys run out of ammo.

If it still decided to make weapons have a condition bar, just make it easy to repair them even if you want to repair it with parts of a gun another party member is holding. Realism (you first have to walk over and exchange the weapons in a barter screen to the person that is able to repair the weapon, then this person has to repair them and then give it back to the person) is a lot of frustrating work and this only for maintaining what you already have. I would not like that, would you?

I completely agree that tedium and over-interaction is not fun.

How about this. A concept of "weapon parts", weapons found can break down into weapon parts. (which should be much easier to carry than 20 long barrel rifles). And weapon parts can be sold for $. Each character carrying weapon parts will automatically repair their weapons during a "resting period (resting, camping, sitting in a bar, etc.)" or by explicit command. And only if the weapon is flagged for repair and if there is matching parts available in the party. (A replacement firing hammer from a .32 snub nose isn't going to help fix your flame-thrower). Of course there should be some kind of passive feedback system (characters expressing concern that their weapon is not working right or has jammed, etc).

Thoughts?

[DarkTwinkie]

We love this and will have some mechanic of weapon wear. I can't agree more that it shouldn't be tedious though. There might be some skills/talents tied into it as well that help improve your ability to restore weapons.

[nathanknaack]

I think this could be simplified down to a tiered system.

1) Normal - The item works as intended.

1.5) Jammed - Only guns have this level of damage. They can be fixed in one combat round as long as you have either some skill with that weapon type or the repair skill.

2) Damaged - Mechanical things (guns) stop working at this level, while non-mechanical things like armor and melee weapons still work, but with reduced stats. You can't fix a damaged item during combat, but as soon as you're out of combat you can patch it up with the repair skill.

3) Broken - The item doesn't work at all at this level; it can't even be equipped. You can't fix it in combat or even out of combat unless you have access to tools and something like a workbench. In effect, this is your "back to town" requirement for fixing the item; you can't perform field repairs.

Each item should have a base chance of moving down the chart every time they're used. For rugged, non-mechanical items, this chance should be very, very low, like a tenth of a percent. The more complex an item is, the higher that chance rises, so that something like a crossbow (which is both mechanical and made from wood) has a 1-3% chance of becoming damaged with every shot.

Guns would need two different numbers: The chances of becoming jammed (which increases if your skills suck, if you're using crappy ammo, or you're firing full-auto) and the chances of becoming damaged. If you're a total newb with guns, you might have a high chance of jamming your AK-47, even if it's brand new. On the other hand, if you're an experienced marksman, your rifle might never jam, but still eventually fall apart because it's old.

Lastly, every time an item falls down a damage level, it adds a tiny fraction of a percent chance to X. X is the chance that, every future time the weapon is damaged, it falls down another level. This is cumulative. The effect here is that, if you use that trusty old rifle for the whole game, it's going to start getting jammed, damaged, and broken more often, until eventually it just breaks all the time because it's got more duct tape and paper clips holding together than original parts.

[Zombra]

CaptainPatch and I talk about this some in the Scarcity thread. A largely automated system that leaves out tedious clicking and sorting but at the same time engages your characters' skill sets. Check it out.

[Lucius]

We love this and will have some mechanic of weapon wear. I can't agree more that it shouldn't be tedious though. There might be some skills/talents tied into it as well that help improve your ability to restore weapons.

This is the first disappointment I've heard since the start of this whole Wasteland 2, but ah well can't win em all I guess. If it's mostly automated based on skills that would be ok. Or if it's a tiered item repair system -it's either broke or it works- that's ok too. I really hope ya'll don't do item health bars/numbers or having to do routine maintenance on all weapons throughout the party every 2 hours of playing.

[Balls Out 3]

Personally, I've never felt that weapon degradation added much of anything to the game play. Whether it be FO3 or Jagged Alliance, I can't think of a game where I actually liked it. It's not that I necessarily dislike it, it's just that it's one more thing to keep track of, and it's never really been much of a factor. It's just there. If it makes it in the game, well ok. I don't feel too strongly either way, but I also wonder, "why bother?". And if you wanted guns to jam unexpectedly during combat, you could tie it to character skill.

CaptainPatch and I talk about this some in the Scarcity thread. A largely automated system that leaves out tedious clicking and sorting but at the same time engages your characters' skill sets. Check it out.

Now, if it was implemented like this, I could get behind it. It takes out all of the tedium, but still gives you that "realistic", wasteland-scarcity-feel.

[GodComplex]

Personally, I've never felt that weapon degradation added much of anything to the game play.

I second this. I hate gear degradation simply cause it just adds grinding to breaks in the story. I've always felt your gear should only improve. You know, find gear in disrepair, take it to a shop and add +2 to whatever stat. Or find a special part ad smash it into your gear of choice to improve some statistic. There should never be the feeling of 'oh cool I got a new toy, but I need to travel to town and back to use it.' It's no fun to slog through the deep dark dungeon to get gear you can't use yet.

CaptainPatch and I talk about this some in the Scarcity thread. A largely automated system that leaves out tedious clicking and sorting but at the same time engages your characters' skill sets. Check it out.

Now, if it was implemented like this, I could get behind it. It takes out all of the tedium, but still gives you that "realistic", wasteland-scarcity-feel.

That is a really really good idea.

[tuluse]

Personally, I've never felt that weapon degradation added much of anything to the game play. Whether it be FO3 or Jagged Alliance, I can't think of a game where I actually liked it. It's not that I necessarily dislike it, it's just that it's one more thing to keep track of, and it's never really been much of a factor. It's just there. If it makes it in the game, well ok. I don't feel too strongly either way, but I also wonder, "why bother?". And if you wanted guns to jam unexpectedly during combat, you could tie it to character skill.

STALKER did weapon degradation really well and it tied in perfectly with the themes of the game.

[Zombra]

CaptainPatch and I talk about this some in the Scarcity thread. A largely automated system that leaves out tedious clicking and sorting but at the same time engages your characters' skill sets. Check it out.

Now, if it was implemented like this, I could get behind it. It takes out all of the tedium, but still gives you that "realistic", wasteland-scarcity-feel.

That is a really really good idea.

Glad you like it! Since it's getting a good response and fits into this thread a little better, I'm reposting the idea here.

If there is a specific "Rest" task that the party can engage in, Maintenance of weapons and gear could be assumed to occur prior to Lights Out.

Assumed maintenance is a great idea. It would be cool if someone in the party carried tools, oil, etc. and automatically performed maintenance during downtime. If you run out of gun oil or other supplies, maintenance becomes impossible and your weapons can no longer be repaired. (Well, maybe with a fantastic roll )

Code: Select all

The Rangers rest for 8 hours.
Snake Vargas cleans and oils your weapons.
Snake Vargas's 9mm UZI has been restored to Good condition.
Angela Deth's .45 ACP has been restored to Good condition.
Critical success!  Thrasher's Remington 870 Shotgun has been restored to Excellent condition!
Hell Razor's Combat Knife has been restored to Good condition.
Snake Vargas is running low on Gun Oil.
Snake Vargas's Maintenance skill has reached level 3!

Code: Select all

The Rangers rest for 8 hours.
Snake Vargas cleans and oils your weapons.
Snake Vargas's 9mm UZI has been restored to Good condition.
Snake Vargas has run out of Gun Oil!
Angela Deth's .45 ACP has not been maintained and remains in Pretty Crummy condition.

To me this kind of thing is really fun.

[Balls Out 3]

STALKER did weapon degradation really well and it tied in perfectly with the themes of the game.

I do like the STALKER games, and I don't recall having a problem with the degradation system, so maybe that's a decent example. The weapon upgrade system, on the other hand, was pretty cool.

[Woolfe]

Yep, this thread should really be absorbed into the Scarcity or the plethora of other threads abotu this

Wasteland is a skill based game. So before you start talking about scarcity of an item, or wear and tear. Think about what having an appropriate skill would mean.

So having a survival skill would mean you can find food an water.
A repair skill, would mean you can maintain things on a day to day basis.
A gun skill would mean knowing how to care for your weapon and reduce wear and tear.
A medical skill would mean identifying sickness etc before it takes hold.
An explosives skill means taking the care required to transport an explosive without it going off etc.

So all of these skills would make a lot of the concepts of "scarcity" less viable as real in game issues. They would either extend the lifespan of the issue to so long that it is not worth the effort programming for it, or remove it altogether.

This doesn't mean all of these are pointless, on the contrary some of them would be very good additions, but it means that by having the appropriate skill you remove the "tedium" associated with the action, but still allow for the "issue" to exist in extreme conditions.

[Ronin73]

We love this and will have some mechanic of weapon wear. I can't agree more that it shouldn't be tedious though. There might be some skills/talents tied into it as well that help improve your ability to restore weapons.

I think weapon jamming frequency is as far as it needs to go. In general I am against outright weapon breakage.

Thank you for the input though. It's always nice to see tidbits from people closely associated with the project and get some insight on where the mindset is on certain topics.

[CaptainPatch]

I think weapon jamming frequency is as far as it needs to go. In general I am against outright weapon breakage.

One of the things that I really dislike about weapon jams in WL was that just because the weapon jammed, you lost the ENTIRE clip/magazine. Over the course of 10-20 jams, you could lose a couple hundred rounds of ammo. It sort of stands to reason that you wouldn't just throw away a scarce commodity like ammo just because one bullet in a clip of 18 jammed. Maybe it's just the magazine itself, or maybe it's just that one bullet, but does that mean you WILL throw away the other 17?

Just had an odd thought: How come we never see our opponents experiencing a weapon jam? Considering how often it happens to the members of the party....

[Ronin73]

Oh weapon jamming wasn't perfect in Wasteland by any means. I should have been clearer on that. Overall I liked the concept and there is obviously a lot of room for it to refined and improved upon.

Whatever they decide to go with I just hope it doesn't involve micro managing the condition of weapons or has a system where the weapon (and armor for that matter) can break outright like it did in the vanilla version of Stalker.

[SniperHF]

We love this and will have some mechanic of weapon wear. I can't agree more that it shouldn't be tedious though. There might be some skills/talents tied into it as well that help improve your ability to restore weapons.

I think it's inherently tedious. Hope you guys prove me wrong, but to date I don't think there is a good example of it.

There is also like an 8 page thread on this in the Mechanics section.

[Color Blotch]

I believe the main problem with maintenance mechanics is not how they implemented by themselves, but rather the way how they integrate into the rest of gameplay (or how they don't). In FNV weapon wear was pointless because the only kind of activity that it was prompting from the player was sorting through loot for salvageable items and repair kit's ingredients, and then combining them as appropriate. It had no big effect on anything and only served as an additional mechanical incumbency for the player.

At the same time maintenance can be made meaningful if linked with the rest of the gameplay in a way that prompts interesting and ambiguous decisions. If some gun is more robust and the other one is more powerful, which one will you use? If having specialized tools improves your results but takes a lot of space in your backpack, would you rather have your gun in better condition or more ammo/stuff? Should you rather have one specialist maintainer or a bunch of jacks of all trades?

The main question here is whether a particular game mechanic asks you difficult questions gameplay wise. If it does and at the same time it's not too taxing as far as micromanagement goes, then it can be made interesting. Otherwise it's just another pointless minigame.