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Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Suggestions for what Wasteland 2 should or could include.

Moderator: Rangers

Top Down vs Isometric

Top down
53
8%
Isometric(-like)
492
70%
Flexible camera (switch between top down and isometric)
153
22%
 
Total votes : 698


Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby Rzarkrusz Rowa » April 4th, 2012, 2:41 pm

ButchinMelancholy wrote:
Rzarkrusz Rowa wrote:Not all games have to be about physically being there. Often a bit of distance is a good thing. For example when playing a humorous party-based cRPG.

A PC game isn't supposed to be a book nor a cRPG is supposed to be a pen-and-paper's replica. The interactive relation is basically what defines video games. And actually, I love top-down/isometric kind of games because they leave us that distance and possibility to let our imagination do the job.

Imagination?

ButchinMelancholy wrote:And a more sedate atmosphere is beneficial for that, so I think Fallout's pace was good.

Yes. For Fallout. Wasteland's pace is good for Wasteland, though.
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Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby ButchinMelancholy » April 4th, 2012, 2:52 pm

Rzarkrusz Rowa wrote:
ButchinMelancholy wrote:
Rzarkrusz Rowa wrote:Not all games have to be about physically being there. Often a bit of distance is a good thing. For example when playing a humorous party-based cRPG.

A PC game isn't supposed to be a book nor a cRPG is supposed to be a pen-and-paper's replica. The interactive relation is basically what defines video games. And actually, I love top-down/isometric kind of games because they leave us that distance and possibility to let our imagination do the job.

Imagination?

More than in other games.

Rzarkrusz Rowa wrote:Yes. For Fallout. Wasteland's pace is good for Wasteland, though.

Why? They are basically similar games.
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Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby Gizmo » April 4th, 2012, 5:06 pm

ButchinMelancholy wrote:A PC game isn't supposed to be a book nor a cRPG is supposed to be a pen-and-paper's replica. The interactive relation is basically what defines video games.
Wait-a-minute.... Says who? (and they already are; have been for years.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choose_Your_Own_Adventure
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_novel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interactive_fiction
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zar ... the-iphone
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planetfall
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hitchh ... eo_game%29

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haKOhyUqk4c#t=01m06s
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Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby ButchinMelancholy » April 4th, 2012, 5:47 pm

Well, I should have formulated it that way: "A cRPG isn't supposed to be a book nor a pen-and-paper's replica". I just didn't think at the moment of the scope of this assertion. But as it is obvious that you can basically do "everything" on a PC, you should have understand it as an opposition between specific PC games and other kind of games.
And as you can note, I still maintain my other assertion because my explanations still stand (I hope you will understand why... ;) ).
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Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby JerryLove » April 4th, 2012, 6:35 pm

Are we voting for what to do or what to avoid?
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Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby dmazz » April 4th, 2012, 7:39 pm

I'd agree that Fallout is slow, slow to interact with and slow to watch. The isometric perspective may have something to do with it too.
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Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby Gizmo » April 5th, 2012, 3:16 am

ButchinMelancholy wrote:Well, I should have formulated it that way: "A cRPG isn't supposed to be a book nor a pen-and-paper's replica".
Initially Fallout was, and the Gold Box SSI games were; but the example was also of interactive (paper) books; I even had some books with RPG dice combat, where you would turn to a given passage depending on the outcome of the fight.

Also Hitchhiker's Guide [by Infocom] was basically a short interactive novella based on the novel.

...you should have understand it as an opposition between specific PC games and other kind of games.
And as you can note, I still maintain my other assertion because my explanations still stand (I hope you will understand why... ;) ).
I guess I don't distinguish any 'opposition' in PC games; all I was noting was that PC games were not defined by interactivity where books (and board games ;) ) were not. Nor were PC games never to replicate books... several games immediately came to mind (including Fallout). I even recall an interactive, realtime, text based adventure game where you play Bilbo Baggins, and the rest of the Dwarves and Gandalf follow along, and can even be talked to along the way. An interactive singleplayer "MUD" (with interactive combat) that paralleled the story of the Hobbit. Image

** Something that could be adapted to Wasteland 2 by the way.... Just consider how slick it could be if there was a text box like Wasteland had, but instead of statically calling out the 'play-by-play' from the Isometric window, or the highlights as was done in Fallout... What if the text box was a dynamic 'MUD' style stream of text that included NPC banter* (almost chat window style) and descriptions of their minor actions as well as combat tallying, and the fully supported option for entering text commands that were not part of the Isometric interface... To be able to type "Look" and get a textual description of the room; far "closer" and significantly more detailed than the ISO view affords ~and stat/skill based filtered.

But imagine that you could do this in the dark (the Iso-view being pitch black in the lower floors of an abandoned research facility). To be able to then type "Look", and get a description, that you bump against some storage lockers in the dark, You type "Open"+"Locker", and "Look in Locker", a description"; "Take"+"Lantern"+"Take Oil"; "Open Lantern"+"Fill Lantern"+"With"+"Oil"+"Light Lantern"+"With"+"Cigarette Lighter", and the result of the typed commands was the appearance of a dynamic lantern light equipped by the PC; showing a 12' radius of the area on the ISO veiw. 8-)
*Play Bard's Tale much? :D

*What if ~~Like Fallout, the NPC's were only voiced in a dialog interface, and the minor stuff only shown in the text box (or with floating text)?
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Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby CoarseDragon » April 5th, 2012, 11:05 am

My vote is isometric all the way.
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Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby PaulEMoz » April 5th, 2012, 11:31 am

I have to admit to being personally disappointed at the way the poll has headed. I'm sure I'll love Wasteland 2 as a game, but if it's not top-down it simply won't feel like Wasteland to me.
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Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby Nori » April 5th, 2012, 12:51 pm

I'd much prefer isometric... I don't see it being particularly more difficult than top down, but maybe I'm wrong... Isometric just works so well for so many tactical games that one would think it would make a lot of sense in the case of Wasteland 2.
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Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby Gizmo » April 5th, 2012, 2:53 pm

PaulEMoz wrote:I have to admit to being personally disappointed at the way the poll has headed. I'm sure I'll love Wasteland 2 as a game, but if it's not top-down it simply won't feel like Wasteland to me.

If it's 3d iso, they can easily include a top down camera.

Even Dungeonkeeper had one as a hotkey feature.
Image

Most 3D engines can do this.
Image
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Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby krellen » April 5th, 2012, 2:55 pm

Gizmo wrote:
PaulEMoz wrote:I have to admit to being personally disappointed at the way the poll has headed. I'm sure I'll love Wasteland 2 as a game, but if it's not top-down it simply won't feel like Wasteland to me.

If it's 3d iso, they can easily include a top down camera.

I know you've heard me say this a dozen times, but you know that's not the same thing.

(Though I did always play Dungeon Keeper top-down. The other cameras felt wrong.)
in my opinion
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Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby Gizmo » April 5th, 2012, 3:20 pm

krellen wrote:I know you've heard me say this a dozen times, but you know that's not the same thing.

(Though I did always play Dungeon Keeper top-down. The other cameras felt wrong.)

I felt the opposite with DK... And I don't understand how it could feel wrong in the first game of a series :?:

** I know you have one, so would you provide us an example of why it's not the same thing? Use Dungeonkeeper as the example. :twisted:
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Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby Yursaman » April 5th, 2012, 5:31 pm

Isometric.
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Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby Checkershand » April 5th, 2012, 10:05 pm

I would want to be able to move the main camera around to different angles. The locked camera in fallout always felt limiting. Even if it's justs top down and isometric on the compas points would be nice.
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Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby alanschu » April 5th, 2012, 11:38 pm

I like isometric because it helps provide a ton of detail in the settings, which I really enjoyed.

It doesn't have to be extreme. I'd consider Ultima VII to be an isometric game, though it's more top down than say Fallout or Jagged Alliance. I get a better sense of what the environments are like with this perspective, and I like that.
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Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby Pumpkins » April 5th, 2012, 11:49 pm

Isometric! no doubt about it!
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Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby Gigabiggle » April 6th, 2012, 2:24 am

I'm not sure I would enjoy Wasteland 2 if it was done in the same style as Wasteland. That's a very different perspective in terms of combat, and seeing the environment. I think if they only hit 900k, you would have saw that game, but hopefully the sky is limit for the kickstarter and we'll see a solid 4 million pot at the end.

Nothing would please me more than to see what a classic isometric crpg format could look like in 1080 detail. It's almost a shame older games like wasteland aren't remade themselves as high definition reboots. I'd pay into a kickstarter to see older games remade from the ground up as legendary tributes to the origins of gaming.

If this team of talented individuals can pull off Wasteland 2 without a hitch, then we could see some awesome games come out in the relatively near future. Not just from this team, but also from the community at large.
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Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby Gizmo » April 6th, 2012, 2:42 am

Gigabiggle wrote:I'm not sure I would enjoy Wasteland 2 if it was done in the same style as Wasteland.

What I don't understand (though I'm not strictly suggesting it) is... Why make a Wasteland 2, if not to be ~very~ similar (though improved) to the first? What's the rational of a series if each one is effectively unrelated gameplay?
*Why make *ANY* sequel, and turn away from the core design(?) instead of just making a fresh unrelated title? (One with no pre-conceptual baggage that you don't plan to implement.)

[For me] A game's setting is secondary to the gameplay ~(that's any game at all). If I like a game it's because of the mechanics ~Story and setting are (without a recalled exception) complete icing on the cake; and it can be good icing, but it's always the cake that matters most.

** Inline-Edit: (sorry, I cannot resist; IMO with Fallout 3, the icing was great, but the cake was a lie. :mrgreen: )**

I might love another game in the Planescape setting, but if it's "PS:Torment 2", I would not love it as a game unless it noticeably resembled many facets of Planescape (1). Same with DoW... "Spacemarine" might be cool, but if that was pushed as Dawn of War 3, I'd be sick.

IMO it doesn't make sense to create a Wasteland 2 that ignores the now ubiquitous 3D hardware that we all have, but [to me] it does not make sense (when making a sequel) to not build upon the original foundation of the series design. Making a sequel based on a different title's (popular) mechanics is a disservice on principle IMO; so I would be very disappointed if the core aspects (including recognizable combat influences and the some incarnation of the scrolling text display) were not prominent parts of the game's UI & mechanics.
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Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby Kimotei » April 6th, 2012, 5:01 am

Why hand drawn iso is much better then 3D polygons.

Its hard for me to express exactly why, but isometric hand drawn static enviroments and objects creates a larger palette for my own fantasy to create images in my head. 3D, while looking slicker and more "real" in fact creates a little distance to my fantasy. Its glossy finnish is one aspect. But the fact that 3D has sort of met the wall in how far it can go regarding polygons is something too consider. It makes it feel to me like a glossy card board world. Wheres the hand drawn style of isometric F1/F1, PST, is timeless like a painting, or a highly detailed graphic cartoon. 3D just mimics with low res polygons. Looks like glossy paper with high resolution prints.

I have a feeling that in just a very few years, todays 3D will look like rubish.

The future is in Unlimited Detail. Where the world is constructed with virtual physical atoms. It sounds like we need super computers to run it, but we dont! The computer needs only render the fps screen picture, not the full world, and thus they made it possible with advanced search technology, similar to Google, etc. The tech is already there, and it doesnt even need a graphic card. It just needs artistic developers to help shape the digital clay, and help from some crazy suporters like us.

In fact they should really be up on Kickstarter! Heres what some programers (not artists!) can show us so far:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-ATtrIm ... ata_player

Still dont belive it? Heres the proof:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uYTnJhM ... ata_player

And these australian guys are not the only ones doing it. Theres also an east european guy, but I cant remember the youtube link.


However I do not think inXile should jump on this technology for Wasteland 2. First of theres likely no game system developer tools made for it. Likely just the basic graphic code. What you can is do real world scans of real objects, with 3D scanners and have them imediately show up in the world. What is missing so far is lighting, a good animation system, dialog and quest systems, and so on and so forth. But the element physics are already there!

Maybe demo it for Planescape Torment 2 or something, some years into the future. ;)
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