Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

[Mort2]

Holy shit!
I want Wasteland to look like this - Stasis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61ILFgiYaRU

That looks nice

[ButchinMelancholy]

I don't want the game to look "like that", but that's pretty nice yeah.

[kipper]

I'm in the minority here, I prefer top-down (or quasi-isometric or top-down-with-perspective), more similar the original wasteland.

Specifically, I've just started playing Fallout (never played it before) and I really dislike/hate how the walls hide things that can only be seen when your character walks over close to them. Wasteland looked 'isometric' in some areas (or top-down-with-perspective), but you couldn't actually walk onto the squares blocked by / behind the walls.

[Smejki]

I don't want the game to look "like that", but that's pretty nice yeah.

sure I mean technically and principally, not stylistically.

[ButchinMelancholy]

Yes, this is really an excellent example.

I love how homogeneous and accurate it feels, the character is perfectly embedded with the sets and distinct at the same time, he has very good animation and aspect (it's organic, not "plastic" and "puppet feel" like it was on Van Buren for example, which I really didn't like because it crushed the atmosphere and credibility of the world in my opinion...), and there is this overall balance between contrast and homogeneity that gives it a detailed look while nothing springs in a sort of surreal way.

I don't really know how to say that, but it feels "real" because it is truthful and not photo-realistic also, it has this warm artistic vision and non artificial aspect that gives him this organic feeling I love. It is detailed (though quite clean here), refined, and has a certain grain.
I want that kind of things too.
Actually, this engine seems pretty good, could it fit with Wasteland 2?

Anyway, this game looks interesting, thanks for the discovery Smejki.

[dmazz]

Very nice example there. http://www.stasisgame.com/

A fixed camera isometric 2D game, with only one person working on it, while working a full time job. That goes to show you how cheap and fast the traditional 2D medium can be. He's using the visionaire engine, which he gives top marks, but that engine is limited to point and click adventure games. Will require some serious hard coding with the source code to make an RPG with it.

[Smejki]

we are just discussing it
and it is 3D

[dmazz]

Yes I know I was continuing the discussion about it. In regards to the graphics, the majority of the objects are modeled in 3D but then rendered in 2D as an image. So it's 2D strictly speaking, but 3D modeling programs were used extensively to make the images, in addition to photoshop. Notice there's no real time shadow on the little person in the video.

[Rzarkrusz Rowa]

I voted for topdown. And by topdown I mean like in Wasteland. It's a good game fast to play. No slow movement animation. Combat is very fast. Good stuff. Efficient.
And it's not an anti-social nerdy game like these isometric cRPGs with their long waits for movement animation, with their immershun and real time outside combat.
Nothing happens until I make an action or decide to wait. I can effortlessly reply on IM while playing Wasteland. It's a very good feature.
Just let me quickly move with keyboard keys in a tactical scale (in opposition to the skirmish scale of Fallout) and don't try to occupy all my attention. Also, windowed mode.

*Question: Did the change of perspective in the GTA franchise affect the core gameplay of the series much? As much as (say...) the same change would affect a sequel to the original Mario Bros. game?
** Did the perspective change in GTA improve upon the core gameplay? (Note: I never played the original GTA, so I'm asking for informed opinions.)

I don't know. I never played any part of GTA after 2. I liked 1 and 2 as funny top-down arcade games with a twist. The cinematic stuff from later GTA games and especially personal histories and personal quests doesn't interest me.

[dmazz]

In regards to GTA and Mario brothers we already have our answer. We have a fully 3D third person perspective version of both games in GTA IV and Super Mario 64.This change in perspective resulted in the latter two games becoming more immersive, interactive, complex and story based. Alot more expensive to make too.

[Drool]

It started with GTA3. And Vice City was the last where I got any enjoyment. San Andreas and 4 just had too much bullshit shoved in. I wanna steal cars and play in a sandbox, not go bowling with my cousin so he'll like me.

[Rzarkrusz Rowa]

In regards to GTA and Mario brothers we already have our answer. We have a fully 3D third person perspective version of both games in GTA IV and Super Mario 64.This change in perspective resulted in the latter two games becoming more immersive, interactive, complex and story based. Alot more expensive to make too.

Which completely changes things. I never played GTA and GTA2 for story or immershun and stuff like that as the only story there was that you had to collect a certain sum of money and you got paid by TV for causing mayhem.
I played it for the lulz. For doing wacky missions, for driving little people over, for blowing up cars, etc.
And I like the top-down view in GTA more because it gave it the "arcade" feel.

[dmazz]

Well working on the same logic, it sounds like a good idea that Wasteland should keep it's limited camera view, otherwise it will lose it's focus and start to branch out into unrelated crap. One thing about Fallout and other similar isometric RPGs that I don't like is movement is awkward, and searching for loot in objects such as desks and shelves is lame. I like the further away camera and slightly more top down perspective of STASIS, as it hides all the little stuff that shouldn't interest you, like chests and shelves full of loot. I've always thought that was a cheap unrealistic gameplay mechanic.

[ButchinMelancholy]

To find things where people usually put their stuff?...
And movement was awkward in which way (apart for some technical limitations)?
Otherwise, Stasis viewpoint is very similar to Fallout, but I think its "slightly more top down" perspective gives it more visiblity at the contrary, and it's not further away.
http://www.darkcarnival.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/531840406.jpg
http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/8405/mychopshop.jpg


@Rzarkrusz Rowa: If you like arcade, "with no hassles" kind of games, you ought to think of something else...
And what's your problem with "immersion" (correct spelling) by the way?

[Gizmo]

"immersion" (correct spelling) by the way?

"Immershun" is derogatory connotative.

...it hides all the little stuff that shouldn't interest you, like chests and shelves full of loot. I've always thought that was a cheap unrealistic gameplay mechanic.

Foremost it's a game; nothing shouldn't interest you ~though not everything will interest everyone.

Also... In PA fiction, who would not look in chests and shelves full of loot?

[ButchinMelancholy]

"immersion" (correct spelling) by the way?

"Immershun" is derogatory connotative.

Of course, that was the reason for this taunt actually and for my question.

[Rzarkrusz Rowa]

@Rzarkrusz Rowa: If you like arcade, "with no hassles" kind of games, you ought to think of something else...

Why? When I play Wasteland, the most time consuming thing is thinking what to do, not watching character animations (though to be honest, the thinking part probably no longer applies). Didn't you have similar experiences with it?

And what's your problem with "immersion" (correct spelling) by the way?

Not all games have to be about physically being there. Often a bit of distance is a good thing. For example when playing a humorous party-based cRPG.

[kipper]

I voted for topdown. And by topdown I mean like in Wasteland. It's a good game fast to play. No slow movement animation. Combat is very fast. Good stuff. Efficient.
And it's not an anti-social nerdy game like these isometric cRPGs with their long waits for movement animation, with their immershun and real time outside combat.
Nothing happens until I make an action or decide to wait. I can effortlessly reply on IM while playing Wasteland. It's a very good feature.
Just let me quickly move with keyboard keys in a tactical scale (in opposition to the skirmish scale of Fallout) and don't try to occupy all my attention. Also, windowed mode.

Well said ! Game-play-wise I *hope* Wasteland 2 will have all the features you listed: much more like Wasteland and much less like Fallout.

[Tpiom]

Isometric if... Here are the differences right? As in the camera angels are different.

Top down:


Isometric:

[ButchinMelancholy]

Why? When I play Wasteland, the most time consuming thing is thinking what to do, not watching character animations (though to be honest, the thinking part probably no longer applies). Didn't you have similar experiences with it?

Fallout wasn't really different from this point of view. You just did it with the mouse instead of keyboard, and the graphic universe was more refined. A little bit more slow for the sake of "immershun" (because of its more "realistic" scale), but nothing significant gameplay-wise.

Not all games have to be about physically being there. Often a bit of distance is a good thing. For example when playing a humorous party-based cRPG.

A PC game isn't supposed to be a book nor a cRPG is supposed to be a pen-and-paper's replica. The interactive relation is basically what defines video games. And actually, I love top-down/isometric kind of games because they leave us that distance and possibility to let our imagination do the job. And a more sedate atmosphere is beneficial for that, so I think Fallout's pace was good.