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Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Suggestions for what Wasteland 2 should or could include.

Moderator: Rangers

Top Down vs Isometric

Top down
53
8%
Isometric(-like)
492
70%
Flexible camera (switch between top down and isometric)
153
22%
 
Total votes : 698


Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby dmazz » March 21st, 2012, 9:59 pm

In Wasteland it was a combined top down, and side view. Most of the landscape is viewed from the top down, but particular objects and edges, are viewed from a side view. This made objects more intelligible than if they were in isometric, given the graphical limitations. The rock walls look like they are in a isometric view but don't quite pull off the 3D look.

Advance Wars is the best modern example http://i.testfreaks.com/images/products ... 484160.jpg
Notice the stylish but simple 2D art that's very effective. The reuse of terrain tiles and reuse of slightly isometric view 2D artwork. (with a tiny bit of animaton) Also the game is a tactical turn based strategy game with RPG elements, and a pretty good one. So although Wasteland 2's technical design will look like this, there would need to a much stronger emphasis on the RPG technical elements. For combat and exploration purposes though, advance wars visual setup works fine and looks good.
Brian says
Clearly we are going top down and that it is likely to be isometric in nature. Some game engines have you bake the assets first which can give a better look while others have you render on the fly and give more latitude with camera work, and we are looking at several options here. I would imagine we will offer some different perspectives when it comes to dialogue.

To me he seems to be talking about what Advance wars does when it comes to dialogue, when two characters are talking to each other, and it does it very efficiently from a 'time to implement' view of things.
http://www.videogamesblogger.com/wp-con ... dialog.jpg
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Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby Sticks » March 22nd, 2012, 5:48 am

Cavalier oblique worked well in Fallout. I didn't like the look of Fallout Tactics, I wonder if the view or distance had a part to play in that. So, cavalier oblique for me.
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Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby Blackstang » March 23rd, 2012, 2:38 pm

I voted to switch between the two, but I don't know how viable that is. If this is all modeled 3D, then the view should be selectable and scalable, but if it's not, then switching will be a waste of effort as all environments will need to be developed twice to support each view. That's extra work that I would rather see put into other areas of the game.

So I need to qualify my vote:

If 3D modeled, then by all means, switch it between the two views... even let us move it around.
if sprite based, then I would go with Isometric.
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Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby kasra5004 » March 26th, 2012, 10:02 am

Wow, about 75% of the fans want isometric, on the other hand Brian has decided the game should be top-down. I love Brian but it seems the whole "obsessed" with fans' opinion thing was not really solemn!
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Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby Workbench » March 26th, 2012, 10:10 am

kasra5004 wrote:Wow, about 75% of the fans want isometric, on the other hand Brian has decided the game should be top-down. I love Brian but it seems the whole "obsessed" with fans' opinion thing was not really solemn!


Brian has not decided that. Isometric is the most likely option, but there will be multiple designs which will be demonstrated before a final decision will be made.
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Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby Mort2 » March 26th, 2012, 11:48 am

kasra5004 wrote:Wow, about 75% of the fans want isometric, on the other hand Brian has decided the game should be top-down. I love Brian but it seems the whole "obsessed" with fans' opinion thing was not really solemn!

That is because one is prespective and the other is a projection... In games top down become associated with birds view 2d and isometric with birds view "3d" in 2d. not sure I explained it right, but the point is that what he said does not contradict isometric or rather axonometric projection.
Last edited by Mort2 on March 26th, 2012, 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby Brother None » March 26th, 2012, 12:45 pm

kasra5004 wrote:Wow, about 75% of the fans want isometric, on the other hand Brian has decided the game should be top-down. I love Brian but it seems the whole "obsessed" with fans' opinion thing was not really solemn!


Hasn't been decided yet. But if you thought Brian's "fans matter" equates them following the poll results on their forum blindly, well...nope. Design decisions are still up to InXile, we're just giving input and feedback.
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Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby paultakeda » March 26th, 2012, 12:54 pm

Brother None wrote:
kasra5004 wrote:Wow, about 75% of the fans want isometric, on the other hand Brian has decided the game should be top-down. I love Brian but it seems the whole "obsessed" with fans' opinion thing was not really solemn!


Hasn't been decided yet. But if you thought Brian's "fans matter" equates them following the poll results on their forum blindly, well...nope. Design decisions are still up to InXile, we're just giving input and feedback.


Also, I think Brian's definition of top down includes isometric. So the type of top down remains up to InXile.
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Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby krellen » March 26th, 2012, 12:57 pm

paultakeda wrote:Also, I think Brian's definition of top down includes isometric. So the type of top down remains up to InXile.

I was told that the definition of "top down" means explicitly "not first- or over-the-shoulder-third-person". Both genuine top-down and the various flavours of isometric projection qualify (though I'm still hoping for genuine non-3D top-down, personally.)
in my opinion
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Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby Woolfe » March 26th, 2012, 1:30 pm

krellen wrote:
paultakeda wrote:Also, I think Brian's definition of top down includes isometric. So the type of top down remains up to InXile.

I was told that the definition of "top down" means explicitly "not first- or over-the-shoulder-third-person". Both genuine top-down and the various flavours of isometric projection qualify (though I'm still hoping for genuine non-3D top-down, personally.)


This is how I feel as well.

I never understood the top down v isometric issue. To me Isometric, is just top down from a slight angle. It doesn't affect the gameplay at all, just how you view it.

I also don't get the issue between 2d and 3d in the same view. Again that is not going to affect gameplay as far as I understand. Maybe someone could enlighten me.
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Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby Nubcakes » March 26th, 2012, 7:54 pm

I think either is fine. Just don't do first person or third person.
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Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby CodogXII » March 27th, 2012, 5:44 am

Having worked in the video games industry for 8 years, the camera view you choose can totally bloat your art budget.

A top down view means that art assets are created mostly to decorate the floors of the world. Artists can literally paint the art assets because of the fixed nature of the camera. This can lead to a more stylized world.

An isometric view automatically means things have to be

a) modelled (if you allow camera motion in the Y axis)
--OR--
b) painted at an angle which takes more art time (if you don't allow vertical camera motion

and not only do you have to decorate the floor, you have to decorate the walls. When you think about the surface areas of the game in those terms, for a cubic room, you just quadrupled the decorated surfaces.

The cost of 3D art assets gets expensive fast because of modelling, painting the textures on them, and some items will want for particle effects and animations as well. When Brian described the project as a top down view, I expect their estimate of the project was based on that criteria. An isometric view will impact the cost of art and could impact the overall amount of content they can create. The isometric view also might drive people to demand a more real time combat system which would depart from the original vision as well.

I'm not sure about everybody else, but part of what made me back this project is my nostalgia for a game that was simple in interface and had the ability to convey more choices, more content, and an open ended sandbox style world. In some ways, the art demands and associated costs of modern games have killed the small studios in the industry. I appeal to you all to ask for the original vision of the product so that we can maximize on the content. I trust Brian and company to make a polished product that is fun. :-)

Just my two shiny pennies worth,

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Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby Tuco » March 31st, 2012, 4:38 am

CodogXII wrote:Having worked in the video games industry for 8 years, the camera view you choose can totally bloat your art budget.

A top down view means that art assets are created mostly to decorate the floors of the world. Artists can literally paint the art assets because of the fixed nature of the camera. This can lead to a more stylized world.

An isometric view automatically means things have to be

That's completely false.
What are you talking about are the advantages of a fixed perspective. *ANY* fixed perspective, not just a top down view.
In fact if you don't allow camera rotation that applies to isometric view too.

Beside, even allowing to rotate the scenario, any distanced view wouldn't "bloat" the budget that much.
Dynamic first and third person cameras are the ones that would imply a significant increase in costs, as any asset at that point should attempt to look fine from a very close view.
Luckily, first or third person cameras aren't even an option for this game.

And by the way, let's not become obsessive about saving money. Can we?
Art style and graphics in the game should be made in some cost-effective way, of course, but that doesn't mean they should be completely downplayed. I guess pretty much everyone here would like a nice looking game, even if not exactly made with cutting edge technologies.
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Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby Akira_x3 » March 31st, 2012, 5:45 am

Isometric for sure.
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Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby The Tallest » March 31st, 2012, 5:16 pm

Casted my vote for isometric (-like).

I do have to say though thay I'd like a 3d world and 3d npcs and such. I don't particularly like sprites and hand drawn. As a child the way the world looked in Wasteland worked for me. But as I got older and my eyes changed I had trouble with certain looks. Fallout, Fallout 2 were hard on my eyes; I'm color blind and a lot of the detail was lost on me. I keep going back to AoD because I think that engine/style would work, for me at least. I know getting that engine would probably be impossible. But something like it would be awesome.
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Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby dmazz » April 1st, 2012, 6:02 am

Makes sense. The more fixed the camera and the more 'top down' the view the less artwork is needed. But the chances of a Wasteland style top down are highly unlikely due to how ugly and exotic it looks. A mixed approach would be better. A fixed camera combined with a fairly high top down view.
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Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby ButchinMelancholy » April 1st, 2012, 10:23 am

Considering the topic, I am hoping for an improved Fallout-like style (Arcanum is a great reference too), which means a fixed 2D (I guess?) isometric view, with perhaps the ability to zoom out a bit if useful.

I am quite agree with Tuco so.
What will change the world in the first place is not what we will do, but what we will refuse to do yet...
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Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby Daho Eclipse » April 1st, 2012, 3:51 pm

:) Vote for trimetric! Oh, wait...

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Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby Woolfe » April 1st, 2012, 4:32 pm

dmazz wrote:Makes sense. The more fixed the camera and the more 'top down' the view the less artwork is needed. But the chances of a Wasteland style top down are highly unlikely due to how ugly and exotic it looks. A mixed approach would be better. A fixed camera combined with a fairly high top down view.


Yes, and you have to remember that this was as much an issue of the technology of the time as anything.

As I have stated previously, an Isometric view is not that different gameplay wise to a top down view. It is a greater effort in programing, but I don't think that will be an issue for Inxile.
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Re: Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

Postby Smejki » April 2nd, 2012, 9:40 am

Holy shit!
I want Wasteland to look like this - Stasis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61ILFgiYaRU
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