Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

[Cruxador]

Isometric is prettier, and with an isometric view we can have hand-painted backgrounds which would be great.

[Drax715]

I've never much cared for the Ultima 7 top down art style:


or this



though I do like the the one used for SSI's Dark Sun Games,


The Android Cyberlords Game


and Entomorph


but overall I prefer isometric/axonometric and would be thrilled if wasteland 2 utilized one.

[Sobboth]

Ultima VII is not top down, it's kind of isometric (you have different isometric view, more of less top down).
What we call a top down game is not a "top down view".
A bit confused ?
Wasteland 1, Ultima 5/6,battle of wesnoth are top down game.
The perspecticve is wrong in a top down game, the characters are somewhat "flat".We don't see them from a "head and shoulder" view like in driftmoon (which is a true top down view, i don't like it).
It could seem strange at first but one accustomed, this false perspective is very pleasant, you get into the game more easily and exploration on the world map is great.
Moreover don't forget even if 2 millions is raised, it's not 2 millions budget and even if it was it's still a very low budget.
We can't expect great graphics with good animation, just pleasant one unless we want to put all the money into that....

[matthewfarmery]

I think isometric would be better if there was the funds for the engine, I think it would be a more enjoyable game, so here's hopeing it will be isometric

[Jean-Luc]

I must say I prefer the iso-view as seen in Fallout, BG's Gate or X-Com.

I hate being able to only see my character's scalp and shoulders. The top down view makes me feel detached and even invokes a slight sense of vertigo, it makes me feel queasy and awkward. Rotatable camera is not needed as far as I'm concerned and in fact I prefer if it's fixed (2D backgrounds).

However this game was advertised as top-down and I've already pledged my money so I'll take responsibility for my decision and not demand anything from the devs. If, for whatever reason (money?), this game has to have a top-down view I'll deal with it.

One thing to keep in mind though. The top-down view in WL was only for navigation around the world and the character sprite actually had a full frontal view, not really top down while, in combat, we didn't even see the characters. So this whole discussion is still sort of "blind" as we don't know what's the character presentation gonna be like. I doubt it'll be as rudimentary like it was in 1988.

For example, I'll find it much easier to swallow top-down backgrounds with isometric characters than a full top-down.

Yeah, this is horrible imho. ^^^

What I'm saying is, there's still a lot we don't know. One important factor is whether the combat is still going to be Final Fantasy style or more akin to Jagged Alliance or Fallout (with a party ofc.).

Edit: Just so it's clear, by "isometric" I mean "at an angle" as opposed to a bird's eye view. It's possible these terms are being used incorrectly (by me as well) which could confuse the whole iso vs. top-down discussion.

[MuscleSpark]

I must say I prefer the iso-view as seen in Fallout, BG's Gate or X-Com.

I believe the term in Fallout's case is "Cavalier Oblique", and it is definitely the best view for a game like this.

[Dark3n]

I prefer Isometric.

[Epsilon]

Brian Fargo twittered that they're going for an isometric style but would ask on their forums what the community wanted. I think it's safe to say that isometric is the best way of pleasing everyone while at the same time allowing people who didn't play the original Wasteland to enjoy this one.

Top down view can be pretty hard to swallow for people who only got into RPG's at the start of the nineties, and especially for those who consider the original Fallouts and the infinity engine based games the rpg golden age.
But isometric on the other hand isn't hard to swallow for people who got into RPG's during the goldbox era, as long as the rpg's maintain the tactical aspect.
Which Brian Fargo has already talked about, ie "being able to position the members of your party in such a way to gain tactical advantage".

[Licaon_Kter]

I hope they'll get some sort of 3D engine so that everyone can set their own perspective as they wish. AoD looks mighty fine with Torque: http://www.irontowerstudio.com/media.htm

[Epsilon]

I hope they'll get some sort of 3D engine so that everyone can set their own perspective as they wish. AoD looks mighty fine with Torque: http://www.irontowerstudio.com/media.htm

Generally I find that 3d doesn't age well.
The 2d games of the nineties still look great or passable, whilst the 3d games of 98 or the start of the millenium looks very bad now, low polygonal models and low res textures, not a lot of attention to detail and blocky environments.
I would hope that this would end up becoming a classic rpg that would retain it's good looks throughout the ages, like the earlier classics.
Add to that the fact that 3d models up the cost of development by a fair amount.

[Kide]

As said I wuld prefer an isometric aspect like in fallout games or baldursgate 2. I think baldursgate 2 and icewind dale 2 had the nicest look to them, but fallout 2 and arcanum style models would be just fine for me as well. Still I at least do not feel the need to have rotatable camera (most of the time it just feels ankward to me in some modern games, whitch try to look a bit like the old ones) So the style that baldursgate series or fallout games had would be fantastic for me. Just loved them. And to me they still look great.

[Licaon_Kter]

Generally I find that 3d doesn't age well.

That's subjective anyway

[Gizmo]

I must say I prefer the iso-view as seen in Fallout, BG's Gate or X-Com.

I believe the term in Fallout's case is "Cavalier Oblique", and it is definitely the best view for a game like this.

IIRC Tim said that Fallout's "Cavalier Oblique" was chosen specifically for a beneficial math feature that allowed for easy [hex] grid alignment and simplified cursor location via shifting; but it did have side effects, and made it awkward to walk/run towards or away from the viewer ~(an effect known as the chicken dance to some).

I think that these days, a fully 3D game (even one that tries to look like a 2D tile based game), could do this ~even have the hex grid if they wish, without requiring that it be "Cavalier Oblique".

[Epsilon]

Generally I find that 3d doesn't age well.

That's subjective anyway

As long as we're not talking science then everything is subjective, our personalities and opinions are merely the sum of our experiences and beliefs.
You thinking that it would look better in 3d is subjective as well, I'm merely putting forth my opinion on the matter to further a discussion on the subject.

[enderandrew]

Generally I find that 3d doesn't age well.

That's subjective anyway

And it simply doesn't hold water anymore.

Half Life 2 is 8 years old. Yep, 8 years old. And it still looks fine.

http://oyster.ignimgs.com/ve3d/ve3d/ima ... 907251.jpg

Early 3D games arguably looked worse than 2D games, but we keep getting closer to photo-realism with 3D now. And a 3D engine is likely to age better at this point than sprites.

I'd like the ability to move a 3/4 tactical camera angle, but I don't want a true isometric (you can never move the camera) view.

[Hyaon]

I personally love Iso. Diablo, Fallout, Arcanum, Path of Excile etc I find just sets the mood perfectly. People are too quick to say 3D is better and they base that on ignorance, believing 2D = OLD 3D=NEW, therefore 3D is better. Rubbish. It's like with paintings, you have people who love paintings from 200 years ago and those who much prefer modern paintings of this decade and vice versa. There is just something beautfiul about iso games that 3D will never capture for me and I have felt this for pretty much a decade since the last Iso game. I have played plenty of topdown/3D and most were soul less for me.

[Epsilon]

I personally love Iso. Diablo, Fallout, Arcanum, Path of Excile etc I find just sets the mood perfectly. People are too quick to say 3D is better and they base that on ignorance, believing 2D = OLD 3D=NEW, therefore 3D is better. Rubbish. It's like with paintings, you have people who love paintings from 200 years ago and those who much prefer modern paintings of this decade and vice versa. There is just something beautfiul about iso games that 3D will never capture for me and I have felt this for pretty much a decade since the last Iso game. I have played plenty of topdown/3D and most were soul less for me.

Definitely agree with you, 2d has more soul and depth due to it allowing for your imagination to take over and fill in the blanks so to say.
He'res a picture of a 3d isometric tactical rpg.

It's from 2005, same time as Halflife 2.
And now from a 2d game from 1997.

While the 2d picture has way lower resolution in textures and models, to me it seems to have more character and soul if you will, if I were to take a picture from Baldurs Gate or planescape torment which has static rendered backgrounds there wouldn't really be much of a competition.
Though the 3d looks cool and you can rotate around objects and such it seems sort of cold and soulless.

At the same time when talking about pure development cost, 3d is far more expensive than 2d and I for one would like deep gameplay and bigger world in a wasteland sequel rather than fancier graphics.

[astateofmind]

iso i would say.

Diablo 3 looks amazing in 3d ... everything is in the art direction.


http://www.planetdiablo.com/images/imag ... nyhill.jpg

[enderandrew]

The actual 3D portion of the screenshot looks fine. The UI and portraits (the 2D portions) are pretty terrible.

So good artists can make a game look good, and bad artists make a game look terrible. Who would have guessed?

[Kide]

I still prefer isometric view in 2D... I understand if some want it to be 3D, but I just have never felt them to be as mutch in their feeling as good old isometric 2D games. Really really hope that style is brought back here.

And I agree that I don't care about graphics as mutch as the story and what you can do in the envirment etc, so I rather put money on it than the graphics.