Top Down vs Isometric View [poll added]

[Bonecrusher]

this is a very good screenshot, thumbs up for that.

[Gizmo]

if they are gonna go with the 90-degrees-perpendicular-to-the-ground-top-down view, they shouldn't bother at all. make it ASCII chars then. puh-lease!

It could be done well, and not be Gauntlet.
**Actually, Gauntlet was pretty good for 1985, and is just as good today...


Heavy Barrel was pretty good also.


Something to keep in mind though, is that Wasteland did not have top-down combat. Is anyone here asking or suggesting that Wasteland 2 entirely abstract the combat to text only discription?

this is a very good screenshot, thumbs up for that.

[Quarex]

Erg, as wonderful as both Eschalons were (looking forward to number 3!) the movement speed between combats was so very. verry. sloooww. This aspect could serve as an example of how not to do it if Wasteland2 gets a similar engine.

Agreed--I had kind of forgotten about just how sluggish the movement felt, but the turn-based style fit the gameplay very well at least.

Also, Gauntlet is probably the most visually appealing top-down game ever made, even including things ten years newer like Grand Theft Auto. But that does not necessarily mean we want Gauntlet III: Wasteland 2.

About the whole top-down/isometric/2D/3D argument, every time I look at Brian Fargo's Twitter feed and see this picture in the background, I instantly think "those look like 3D models" but I would love to hear other opinions (they could just be concept art, but they seem a little polygonal to me):

https://twimg0-a.akamaihd.net/profile_b ... wit_BG.jpg

[Gizmo]

I'm going to say [guess] that it's concept art for two reasons.



1st: It really looks like gritty hand drawn (digital) concept art that depicts ideas for low poly models (but not consistently IMO). The style almost reminds me of Team Fortress 2 ~but with less exageration.

2nd: I can't imaging anyone would model anything that detailed without first knowing all of the specifics about what engine they plan to use ~and they don't know that yet right?

[Sub-Human]

Certainly isometric. Allows more visual details, after all.

[Tuco]

Well, this is exactly the kind of top down view I could not stand.
It's unbearable for a modern game, it doesn't matter how low in budget.
it's not pleasant to the sight, it's not particularly comfortable, it doesn't hold any practical advantage over an isometric view.

The Chaos Engine, on the other hand...


That was a sort of top down view I could easily dig in.
It has artistic merits, personality, and it looks "sort of cool".
I'm not sure it would be particularly cost effective, by the way.

[Citronvand]

Well, this is exactly the kind of top down view I could not stand.
It's unbearable for a modern game, it doesn't matter how low in budget.
it's not pleasant to the sight, it's not particularly comfortable, it doesn't hold any practical advantage over an isometric view.

The Chaos Engine, on the other hand...


That was a sort of top down view I could easily dig in.
It has artistic merits, personality, and it looks "sort of cool".
I'm not sure it would be particularly cost effective, by the way.

But now you are talking about the art-style. I don't want a typical JRPG art-style for Wasteland 2 either. When I posted a picture of Ultima V which you didn't like I was only talking about the perspective and showing how a top-down 2D game can look like. I wouldn't want the same graphics for Wasteland 2.

[Tuco]

But now you are talking about the art-style.

Nope, I was specifically talking about the perspective.
Of course, I don't like the art style neither, but that's not the point.

Now, of course, I'm not going to claim that a top down view is always hopeless, and given a stunning-enough art direction even top down could look fine (see The Chaos Engine).
The point is, there are far more chances for it to look wrong, and isometric view is a far more safe bet.

[Epsilon]

Theres a finnish rpg in development at the moment, I forget what the name is. The designers name is "Ville or Vile" I believe. It's a top down 3d game the camera is fixed looking down on the player.
And while the game might be good I just couldn't play it for that long as it's perspective made me seasick.
I've no problem playing older top down games, as they're pretty basic in textures and character detail means theres not a lot for the eye to focus on.

But a new game with that amount of detail in textures and the characters means that the eye can and will look and focus on many different things and with the camera locked on the character as he moves it can cause some uncomfortable levels of seasickness for people who're prone to that, like myself.

Thus I much prefer the isometric perspective as seen in Fallout or Crusader.

[Citronvand]

But now you are talking about the art-style.

Nope, I was specifically talking about the perspective.
Of course, I don't like the art style neither, but that's not the point.

Then could you explain the difference? The only thing I see is that the characters in Chaos Engine doesn't really lie down on the ground.

[xbogx]

Chaos Engine looked really good but didn't really have a lot of frames per character:

http://sdb.drshnaps.com/objects/14/1868 ... layers.png

It probably wouldn't be expensive at all if they keept a more abstract representation of the characters and didn't bother with appearance changes for every weapon and clothing.

[Jp1138]

I think the general design or art direction is more important than top-down or isometric: both can be great o horrible. I hope we get the great, of course Anyway, you can do nice things nowadays with a top-down perspective, so I would vote for the easier to make so other parts of the game can be given enough time.

[Tuco]

Then could you explain the difference? The only thing I see is that the characters in Chaos Engine doesn't really lie down on the ground.

Well, *that* is the difference. Not a trivial one, as far as I'm concerned.

I think the general design or art direction is more important than top-down or isometric: both can be great o horrible. I hope we get the great, of course

Generally speaking I agree with you.
But as I said, I see the top down as a perspective far more easy to "get wrong" if not supported by a good-enough art direction.

Let me word it in another way: when you use isometric, you just need an art that is decent enough.
When you use a top down view, you need *very good*, solid art or it's going to suck.

[Crooked Bee]

Well, to me the Shining Force screenshot looks much better and pleasing to the eye than the Chaos Engine one, which I don't like one bit, so it's all a matter of personal preference anyway.

[Citronvand]

Then could you explain the difference? The only thing I see is that the characters in Chaos Engine doesn't really lie down on the ground.

Well, *that* is the difference. Not a trivial one, as far as I'm concerned.

Alright, that's ok. We all have our preferences.

Generally speaking I agree with you.
But as I said, I see the top down as a perspective far more easy to "get wrong" if not supported by a good-enough art direction.

Not sure I agree with you there. But assuming you are correct I personally don't think it is enough justification to pick isometric over top-down.

[Citronvand]

Just came upon this picture and wanted to share it with you guys:

I think this is a great example how Wasteland 2 could look like in a top-down 2D perspective. They can always beef up the graphics/resolution a bit while keeping the perspective and art-style.

[Tinkerbell]

Theres a finnish rpg in development at the moment, I forget what the name is. The designers name is "Ville or Vile" I believe. It's a top down 3d game the camera is fixed looking down on the player.
[..].

Still Driftmoon or? Developers are finnish, game sounds good, looks got, top down makes me wanny cry and not buy

http://www.instantkingdom.com/driftmoon/

[Jp1138]

Just came upon this picture and wanted to share it with you guys:
...
I think this is a great example how Wasteland 2 could look like in a top-down 2D perspective. They can always beef up the graphics/resolution a bit while keeping the perspective and art-style.

That could be very nice, indeed.

I think of something more top-down when we talk about it, something like, not necesarily 3D:

http://www.instantkingdom.com/driftmoon/

I would probably prefer the screen you posted, but I think in that case there´s less to win from isometric, as it seems you would need to draw all the front faces of buildings, etc. In a true top-down view you can put less detail in them.

Edit: well, I had firefox open and didn´t refresh the page, so I didn´t see Tinkerbell´s post, with the exact same link I posted.

[Skirge]

Theres a finnish rpg in development at the moment, I forget what the name is. The designers name is "Ville or Vile" I believe. It's a top down 3d game the camera is fixed looking down on the player.
[..].

Still Driftmoon or? Developers are finnish, game sounds good, looks got, top down makes me wanny cry and not buy

http://www.instantkingdom.com/driftmoon/

Agreed! I don't think I could bring myself to play a game with that perspective. The first thing I noticed was that the main character was pretty much gliding over the ground. It just looked bad. Even at a slight angle, you probably wouldn't notice. However, I doubt W2 is going to look like that.

[Tuco]

Just came upon this picture and wanted to share it with you guys:

I think this is a great example how Wasteland 2 could look like in a top-down 2D perspective.

I think it's funny cause this is essentially isometric a isometric 2D.

Of course, it looks nice.
It's also from Junkboy, who works in Mojang now and it's one of the best artists you can find when it comes to pixel art.
I would be very happy if Wasteland 2 could look this good, but I'm not deluding myself with inflated expectations.

That's why I suggest a very simple and very clean approach for the visual style of the game.