Optional Difficulty Setting: Ammo Scarcity

[painiac]

For me, nothing says "survival in the wasteland" like truly having to scrounge for ammo and medical supplies. It really breaks the survival atmosphere when after a few hours of playing, I've already picked up enough loot that I never have to think about ammo availability again. Whenever it's an option in any such game, I always install mods to make ammo much more scarce. Sometimes, I'm in a mood to play where every encounter makes me sweat about whether I have enough ammo left to survive the journey back to town.

It's been hinted that ammo scarcity will be a factor in this game. I realize that not everyone likes to play this to an extreme, so I suggest a simple difficulty option in the settings menu to make ammo and other supplies EXTREMELY scarce. This would drastically decrease the amount of supplies dropped by enemies and decrease the inventory that stores have available.

[Harpo]

Amen

[SniperHF]

If the game uses some sort of randomized loot system I can see this working and could be factored into the difficulty level. But if not it would be pretty difficult to do I think and a mod would have to suffice. But either way I think you'll be covered.

[Woolfe]

This argument has been had in several other threads, Joby(I think it was) chimed in on one and mentioned that Scarcity was definately something they are playing with. To what extent however is still to be known.

[GodComplex]

If the game uses some sort of randomized loot system I can see this working and could be factored into the difficulty level. But if not it would be pretty difficult to do I think and a mod would have to suffice. But either way I think you'll be covered.

Eh they did it with Project New Vegas. I myself would tolerate scarcity more if you had reusable ammo for slings and bows. Ranged has to be a viable option or it's just a proton ax party vs belt-fed lead spewers. Still want the 'lock bayonets' command too.

[snakeoil]

even though i am usually against any type of difficulty setting, i would hope for an extreme mode just to please all these hardcore guys, make it so tough they wont survive 1 day. one box of bullets should by far be enough for their trip into the horrors of a wasteleand.

[Lucius]

When it comes to ammo scarcity the way I see it, if I wanted to play melee, I would play a fantasy setting and equip swords. A modern day or future setting is for guns. With that said, I think it's a matter of finding the fine line between never thinking about ammo and constantly running out. If they can make it so you have to worry about ammo running out, and you never are able to get comfortable with the amount of ammo available, they will have achieved the scarcity goal.

[paultakeda]

Scarcity should be part of the game, not an optional difficulty setting.

I'm really perplexed at this idea of options for difficulty. The game should just be hard, period. This is a niche product and while it would be nice to have it reach new fans I would rather reach them by providing a more challenging experience rather than mainstreaming the game itself.

Options are bad until proven good. I still have a hard time understanding difficulty levels for CRPGs, since this typically just means affecting combat when a CRPG is so much more than just combat. You make the CRPG harder by changing your party makeup: create a party that just does melee and has no gun skills, that'll be hard but you'll have no worries about ammo.

The freedom to make up the party how you want it provides so many varieties of play I literally see no point in difficulty options. They tend to compromise game design and polish as any array of toggles will require more dev and more testing. I'd rather spend the money elsewhere.

[tuluse]

Scarcity should be part of the game, not an optional difficulty setting.

I'm really perplexed at this idea of options for difficulty. The game should just be hard, period. This is a niche product and while it would be nice to have it reach new fans I would rather reach them by providing a more challenging experience rather than mainstreaming the game itself.

Options are bad until proven good. I still have a hard time understanding difficulty levels for CRPGs, since this typically just means affecting combat when a CRPG is so much more than just combat. You make the CRPG harder by changing your party makeup: create a party that just does melee and has no gun skills, that'll be hard but you'll have no worries about ammo.

The freedom to make up the party how you want it provides so many varieties of play I literally see no point in difficulty options. They tend to compromise game design and polish as any array of toggles will require more dev and more testing. I'd rather spend the money elsewhere.

A lot of cRPG difficulty settings changed how much experience you got, or how much better you go when you leveled.

[Zombra]

Scarcity should be part of the game, not an optional difficulty setting.

Hear, hear.

[paultakeda]

A lot of cRPG difficulty settings changed how much experience you got, or how much better you go when you leveled.

Sure, from XP gained from combat. It's always combat. Making the quest mechanics outside of combat scalable is an interesting job (some adventure games did do this to some extent by changing puzzles but they never really worked out too well). I just don't see the point. You get more XP so you level faster, but as enemies are harder it's all a wash, really.

[GodComplex]

Scarcity should be part of the game, not an optional difficulty setting.

I'm really perplexed at this idea of options for difficulty. The game should just be hard, period. This is a niche product and while it would be nice to have it reach new fans I would rather reach them by providing a more challenging experience rather than mainstreaming the game itself.

Options are bad until proven good. I still have a hard time understanding difficulty levels for CRPGs, since this typically just means affecting combat when a CRPG is so much more than just combat. You make the CRPG harder by changing your party makeup: create a party that just does melee and has no gun skills, that'll be hard but you'll have no worries about ammo.

The freedom to make up the party how you want it provides so many varieties of play I literally see no point in difficulty options. They tend to compromise game design and polish as any array of toggles will require more dev and more testing. I'd rather spend the money elsewhere.

Because at the level of scarcity some people are demanding it pigeonholes the player into a single play style and makes it a survival/spreadsheet simulator and less of a story focused RPG. Being hard for hard sake starts drifting into annoying territory. Do you really have a difficult time grasping that not everyone wants to play the same way you do? A simple slider accommodates many camps of mindsets and allows for playing on god mode once in a while. I want the option to dump a belt into that slaver at point blank for the lulz knowing that I may have to grind up some ammo after the fact, but I should be able to acquire that ammo.

But the point is it should be feasible to obtain limitless supplies if I want to spend hours focusing on acquiring them.

[paultakeda]

Because at the level of scarcity some people are demanding it pigeonholes the player into a single play style and makes it a survival/spreadsheet simulator and less of a story focused RPG. Being hard for hard sake starts drifting into annoying territory. Do you really have a difficult time grasping that not everyone wants to play the same way you do? A simple slider accommodates many camps of mindsets and allows for playing on god mode once in a while. I want the option to dump a belt into that slaver at point blank for the lulz knowing that I may have to grind up some ammo after the fact, but I should be able to acquire that ammo.

But the point is it should be feasible to obtain limitless supplies if I want to spend hours focusing on acquiring them.

I have no objection to the idea that ammo can be limitless, but I do think it should, while limitless, be hard to come by for exotics. Sliders and any options of any sort that try to impact difficulty remain hard for me to accept. This is a personal bias but I do think that difficulty options water down the game design and invest a lot more to testing for balance.

I have no issue grasping not everyone wants to play the same way I do. The thing is I believe that party makeup, as you have the ability to create an entire party and augment it with the NPCs you want, allows you to play the way you want. You want all melee? Go for it. The party generation alone provides so much gameplay variety that difficulty sliders feel artificial to me as a way of augmenting gameplay variety.

[GodComplex]

I have no objection to the idea that ammo can be limitless, but I do think it should, while limitless, be hard to come by for exotics. Sliders and any options of any sort that try to impact difficulty remain hard for me to accept. This is a personal bias but I do think that difficulty options water down the game design and invest a lot more to testing for balance.

I have no issue grasping not everyone wants to play the same way I do. The thing is I believe that party makeup, as you have the ability to create an entire party and augment it with the NPCs you want, allows you to play the way you want. You want all melee? Go for it. The party generation alone provides so much gameplay variety that difficulty sliders feel artificial to me as a way of augmenting gameplay variety.

I probably came off a bit harsh, but I get rather cross with some of the people saying you shouldn't be able to do certain things. If you haven't used it, Project Nevada for New Vegas really does make the game more fun. I wanted more of a challenge so I knocked down my XP gain a bit but I increased the fall without damage distance, cause F you gravity.

Sliders shouldn't be a difficult thing to implement if a couple of people can make a mod for it and I argue it increases re-playability. I can see your point about the party makeup, but let's say I want to gift all my guys rocket launchers and take on that gang that gave me grief the first time through, it's the simple things in life. But if I have to wait for a mod for it so be it.

[paultakeda]

I can see your point about the party makeup, but let's say I want to gift all my guys rocket launchers and take on that gang that gave me grief the first time through, it's the simple things in life. But if I have to wait for a mod for it so be it.

That is literally the reason for a mod kit for me and I was ecstatic the KS hit the target for it. Fun stuff like that extends the life of the game but ultimately I want the production release to be as tight as possible; that means any option considered should be considered well. Should it work for the game, then by all means, put it in. But if it's for a bit of fun? If there's time, if there's room, sure... but I'm not sweating it as the mod kit's a guaranteed thing.

[Volthar]

I have no objection to the idea that ammo can be limitless, but I do think it should, while limitless, be hard to come by for exotics. Sliders and any options of any sort that try to impact difficulty remain hard for me to accept. This is a personal bias but I do think that difficulty options water down the game design and invest a lot more to testing for balance.

I don't think balance should be a consideration, it is a single player game after all.

I have no issue grasping not everyone wants to play the same way I do. The thing is I believe that party makeup, as you have the ability to create an entire party and augment it with the NPCs you want, allows you to play the way you want. You want all melee? Go for it. The party generation alone provides so much gameplay variety that difficulty sliders feel artificial to me as a way of augmenting gameplay variety.

I do agree with that but it doesn't really apply if you're talking about ammo. If you have fixed ammo, then your party makeup is limited by the ammo supply. I can't just say that I want to go for an all 'ranged' party if the game doesn't give me the ammo to support that play style.

Looking back at FO:NV, I've played that in the hardcore mode where you had to scrounge for ammo and food, but I've also played it where I used the console to give myself an assault rifle with 20k ammo. Sometimes I'm in the mood for a more survivalist experience but sometimes I just want to go out and kick some ass. I'd prefer they did give us a slider for ammo availability, it would let me tune the game play according to what I'm in the mood for.

[paultakeda]

I don't think balance should be a consideration, it is a single player game after all.

The balance I refer to is the balance of the game's aspects, not balance with regards to multiplayer.

I do agree with that but it doesn't really apply if you're talking about ammo. If you have fixed ammo, then your party makeup is limited by the ammo supply. I can't just say that I want to go for an all 'ranged' party if the game doesn't give me the ammo to support that play style.

Looking back at FO:NV, I've played that in the hardcore mode where you had to scrounge for ammo and food, but I've also played it where I used the console to give myself an assault rifle with 20k ammo. Sometimes I'm in the mood for a more survivalist experience but sometimes I just want to go out and kick some ass. I'd prefer they did give us a slider for ammo availability, it would let me tune the game play according to what I'm in the mood for.

That sort of preference turns the game into something else and it does affect balance with regards to the game's other aspects. I see this survivalist mode as a mod kit variation, not an option available with the released game. Tuning a game's core mechanics to turn it into a different experience defaults to the mod kit unless there is a good reason for it to be present in the main game such that it justifies the expense of development and testing.

[painiac]

Good points made on both sides of the issue.

The implementation isn't really difficult at all: it's a simple matter of varying loot tables used for enemy drops and store inventories. This is actually a trivial mod to implement, but if it must be done with a mod later then so be it. If this is not part of the game then I expect this would be one of the first mods to be made, actually. After a nudity mod, of course...

[Ronin73]

After reading the vision document I got the impression that ammo scarcity will be a default setting.

[Drool]

Yeah, but "scarcity" means different things to different people.

Personally, I'm guessing their definition is going to be more, "if you waste it, you'll run out" as opposed to "bullets are so rare that you won't use them for half the game".