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Shame on you inxile

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Shame on you inxile

Postby DesignerDude » December 6th, 2012, 1:28 am

Why are you trying to spec work your art assets?.. it's sickening that you are promoting spec work.

Watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsstOs-K7gk

It seems many people on PCgamer agree also: http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/12/06/inxil ... steland-2/
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Re: Shame on you inxile

Postby Drool » December 6th, 2012, 1:55 am

Whine whine whine.
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Re: Shame on you inxile

Postby DanConroy » December 6th, 2012, 1:58 am

If the model isn't used it can still be sold in the store.

Plus it gives the artist another portfolio piece. I really don't see the big issue here.
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Re: Shame on you inxile

Postby DesignerDude » December 6th, 2012, 2:14 am

It not being sold in the store isn't the issue.

They are expecting TIME for no MONEY, are you not a freelancer? Or have you only worked in a studio, maybe this is why you do not understand. you charge for time... you do not work for FREE.

It is spec work, plain and simple. the video illustrates this very well. It is lame just like sourced logo sites etc.

Would you ask 1000 architects to design you a house, and say 'I will pick the best one and pay them, it will be great for your portfolio lolz!' They would laugh in your face and tell you that you are INSANE

Why are digital creatives expected to work like this? Shame on you DanConroy as one professional to the other for not even knowing what spec work is and why it's bad.. When this trend catches on and every client you have expects you to work for free with some carrot-on a stick gamble, I hope you'll feel good about yourself.

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Re: Shame on you inxile

Postby DanConroy » December 6th, 2012, 2:27 am

DesignerDude wrote:It not being sold in the store isn't the issue.

They are expecting TIME for no MONEY, are you not a freelancer? Or have you only worked in a studio, maybe this is why you do not understand. you charge for time... you do not work for FREE.

It is spec work, plain and simple. the video illustrates this very well. It is lame just like sourced logo sites etc.

Would you ask 1000 architects to design you a house, and say 'I will pick the best one and pay them, it will be great for your portfolio lolz!' They would laugh in your face and tell you that you are INSANE

Why are digital creatives expected to work like this? Shame on you DanConroy as one professional to the other for not even knowing what spec work is and why it's bad.. When this trend catches on and every client you have expects you to work for free with some carrot-on a stick gamble, I hope you'll feel good about yourself.

Alex
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I seem to have been looking at this from a causal artist kind of deal, I do understand where your coming from.

I have seen this before for other indie titles, asking people to create art work for "contests" then doing it again and again.

And no i've never been aware of anything outside of studio work, thats just how my professional life has led me.
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Re: Shame on you inxile

Postby DesignerDude » December 6th, 2012, 2:36 am

It is not casual in the slightest my friend.

This company has been funded 3 million dollars for this project.. Three Million.

If they do not have the money to properly create art assets or pay someone directly to do this, then someone in the company is either blowing all their funding money on heroin and prostitutes, or they are attempting to get potentially 1000's of dollars of FREE design work and not have to pay a proper artist for it. Pocketing a large lump sum of the funding for themselves

It is completely shameless and very wrong. I really hope this bites them in the ass in a huge way
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Re: Shame on you inxile

Postby Ronin73 » December 6th, 2012, 2:51 am

I must have missed the part where inXile put a gun to everyone's head and forced people to work for them.

It's purely optional. If no one participates do you really think the game somehow won't get released?

People will whine about anything these days.
The biggest failure in the recent past is this assumption that the audience is not smart.Too much effort is being spent making it dummy proof..all the clues are being held right in front of their nose.The exploration and journey is the reward

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Re: Shame on you inxile

Postby DesignerDude » December 6th, 2012, 3:22 am

you're completely missing the point. it's pointless trying to explain to people that don't understand why spec work is a terrible concept for creative professionals. Only people who aren't freelancers/creative professionals themselves cannot grasp the fact that this is asking people to work for free. 'Nobodys forcing you!' .. 'It's fiiine' 'quit whining' You have no clue what kind of message this sends out to people. You're ignorant. completely mindless.


It's principle. it's ethics. it's implying people should use their hard earned skills for essentially nothing, not even a hint of pricing either. It's totally messed up that inxile are doing this too.
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Re: Shame on you inxile

Postby Ronin73 » December 6th, 2012, 4:01 am

DesignerDude wrote:you're completely missing the point. it's pointless trying to explain to people that don't understand why spec work is a terrible concept for creative professionals. Only people who aren't freelancers/creative professionals themselves cannot grasp the fact that this is asking people to work for free. 'Nobodys forcing you!' .. 'It's fiiine' 'quit whining' You have no clue what kind of message this sends out to people. You're ignorant. completely mindless.


It's principle. it's ethics. it's implying people should use their hard earned skills for essentially nothing, not even a hint of pricing either. It's totally messed up that inxile are doing this too.


If it was really about principle and ethics, nobody would be doing this kind of work to begin with, and you would never have the need to complain about it existing.

Bottom line is people like you are just butthurt, because there are others out there who are willing to do this sort of work, for whatever reason. Hell they might even do it because they just love doing it and aren't driven by a large paycheck (imagine that?) or is just easier to assume that the people doing this work are complete idiots and are being brainwashed by those offering the work? :roll:

So yeah, I don't think I'm missing the point at all, and the reason you can't/won't explain is because you won't admit that it is competition plain and simple, so adapt or die, and you are kidding yourself if you think whining will change that.
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Re: Shame on you inxile

Postby DesignerDude » December 6th, 2012, 4:34 am

very mature. 'Butthurt' yes of course. really? are you 12 years old? I don't know what you're talking about with I 'can't/won't explain' I've posted many links here, and a video, and explained it pretty clearly :? .... I think you might need to brush up on some reading comprehension there :( (no offence, I mean that, could be an issue) I honestly think you're a mindless fanboy, who has absolutely no idea how a freelancer survives, or anything about working in the creative industry at all... So (again, no offence) Your opinion is completely and utterly worthless to me.

A guy who brought up the same issue on PC gamer, is currently the top rated comment with 30+ upvotes. : http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/12/06/inxil ... steland-2/

I guess all of these people must be 'Butthurt' and wrong too....

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Last edited by DesignerDude on December 6th, 2012, 4:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shame on you inxile

Postby dorkboy » December 6th, 2012, 4:38 am

i must admit i have.. mixed feelings about this sort of thing.

for professional designers it's obviously a really shitty deal. you've got bills to pay and so you're pretty much forced to take whatever jobs you can - in this case 'per piece', with a lot of ifs and maybes attached to it.

and expanding your portfolio is entirely irrelevant if companies rely heavily on this kind of employment model.

for the hobby/enthusiast/amateur who doesn't need the money and just wants to contribute or work on their skills it's a different story. having one of your models used in a game would provide a huge confidence boost, and maybe convince you to take it to the next level. (supposing there is a next level to take it to.)

mixed feelings.. then again, i have no idea of the extent to which inxile are actually relying on this sort of asset sourcing, as opposed to in-house designers..
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Re: Shame on you inxile

Postby BubbaBrown » December 6th, 2012, 10:03 am

The problem with Spec work is that it can severely damage the economics of the design process. Spec work done wrong over time will undermine the value of the work from designers. First, it makes the design economy undesirable to good professional designers and will eventually drive them elsewhere. And, it sets a bad precedence overall that if adopted in too many places for too many things.

This type of process isn't unheard of though. Casting calls, auditions, and government grants follow this model to an extent. Even companies when they put out requests for contract work from engineering firms have similar process. They eventually pay for the whole design/production process, but they require a detailed design document, projected accounting report, and project plans beforehand as part of the bidding process. Those design documents, accounting reports, and project plans are not trivial to compile and can take months.

The key thing to this model working in a manner that doesn't damage the economics of the design industry is that work expected for submissions isn't more demanding than good sample work. Spec work turns bad the second complicated, advanced, and detailed work is expected to be submitted for free. There's a difference between requesting some random, simple car part for submission (bolt, gear, etc.) and requesting a whole car done to detailed specifications for submission.
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Re: Shame on you inxile

Postby Gizmo » December 6th, 2012, 10:06 am

DesignerDude wrote:Only people who aren't freelancers/creative professionals themselves cannot grasp the fact that this is asking people to work for free. 'Nobodys forcing you!' .. 'It's fiiine' 'quit whining' You have no clue what kind of message this sends out to people. You're ignorant. completely mindless.
Who is working? If some unknown client contacts an artist and says they have three jobs on-spec [say... some forensic animation for a prosecutor] ~are they interested? There is not much incentive to bother with it; unless you want contacts (and a possibly reputation for being gullible).

But if Disney [now] gave a call for minor cgi work and it could be in the next Star Wars ~what Star Wars fan would say 'no'; especially since they wouldn't have the opportunity otherwise... Many would do it for free, and the idea that they could get paid for it is just added awesome. It's also very different from a situation where if Disney had instead offered them a job and then demanded the work be on-spec.

Anyone who contributes an entry to the Wasteland 2 crowd-sourcing would be doing so in their spare time as a hobby project because they want to. If they didn't want to... they already know it's on-spec, so why would they do it?

This is a non-issue [IMO]. The idea that it dilutes (or cheapens) the industry falls flat because not every company (or every internal project of a given company) would draw the mass appeal of artists to contribute on-spec. There will never be an open environment where where a company can reliably threaten a good artist with getting someone else to do it on-spec... and in those times when they can ~~That's capitalism; if they can get it that way, they deserve to (the artist and the employer both).

BubbaBrown wrote:Spec work turns bad the second complicated, advanced, and detailed work is expected to be submitted for free. There's a difference between requesting some random, simple car part for submission (bolt, gear, etc.) and requesting a whole car done to detailed specifications for submission.
I agree with this... If someone demands that... and still demands that after an explanation of why the answer is 'no', then I don't work for them. Image
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Re: Shame on you inxile

Postby CaptainPatch » December 6th, 2012, 11:21 am

DesignerDude wrote:This company has been funded 3 million dollars for this project.. Three Million.

If they do not have the money to properly create art assets or pay someone directly to do this, then someone in the company is either blowing all their funding money on heroin and prostitutes, or they are attempting to get potentially 1000's of dollars of FREE design work and not have to pay a proper artist for it. Pocketing a large lump sum of the funding for themselves

You really have no idea how much it costs to run a business these days, do you? $3 million really isn't all that much money for a project of this scale. The overhead costs alone for 18 month period amounts to a LOT. Just wage expense foe a comparatively small staff for that period WILL run over $1 million. (Or are you expecting these people to labor on FOR FREE, with no thought at all for their own living expenses?) And that is calculated at a significantly lower wage scale than industry standards. And that's just ONE expense.

Even if all of the artwork needed for the game was FREE, $3 million dollars wouldn't be providing all that much coverage for the project's total expenses.

This aspect of the production doesn't address the morality of using spec work. But I assure you, it is _extremely_ unlikely that anyone at inXile is skimming money to enrich themselves. If anything, they will be scrambling to make up the cash difference just to complete the project on time.
Last edited by CaptainPatch on December 6th, 2012, 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shame on you inxile

Postby Ronin73 » December 6th, 2012, 1:08 pm

DesignerDude wrote:very mature. 'Butthurt' yes of course. really? are you 12 years old? I don't know what you're talking about with I 'can't/won't explain' I've posted many links here, and a video, and explained it pretty clearly :? .... I think you might need to brush up on some reading comprehension there :( (no offence, I mean that, could be an issue) I honestly think you're a mindless fanboy, who has absolutely no idea how a freelancer survives, or anything about working in the creative industry at all... So (again, no offence) Your opinion is completely and utterly worthless to me.



Yeah, "buthurt" was a poor choice of words I will apologize for that. Actually the tone of my entire post was a lot more hostile than I wanted it to be. I generally just get annoyed at those that get up on a soapbox acting like they know the motivations of others, without taking a moment to think that not everyone thinks like them. So again my apologies.

That said, the general point of my original post still stands. There are people out that there are more than willing to do this kind of work simply because they either love what they do or just want to help out the project because they are fans of the game and want to contribute. Yeah it sucks that people in your profession could make less money because of it, but if people want to do it, who are you to stop them?

Not everything is always about you, your profession and the search for a paycheck.
Last edited by Ronin73 on December 6th, 2012, 1:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Shame on you inxile

Postby Brother None » December 6th, 2012, 1:15 pm

Please do not make it personal, guys, he has a legitimate concern.

DesignerDude wrote:Why are you trying to spec work your art assets?.. it's sickening that you are promoting spec work.

Watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsstOs-K7gk

It seems many people on PCgamer agree also: http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/12/06/inxil ... steland-2/


Yes. I've seen the complaints, as has Brian Fargo, and we've been talking about the concerns. One of the posters on PCGamer refers to this FAQ, and a three-point system to determine spec work... Let's answer them.

Will I equitably pay a winning designer for the work rendered as if they were hired under contract to do the same thing?

This isn't a contest so there's no "winning designer", but yes, people are compensated for this work at the same level as any artist who put his models and work on the Unity Asset store.

Will I negotiate a proper compensation for the usage rights commensurate to their level of skill?

Again, the compensation here follows the Unity Asset store standards.

Will I return the working files and usage rights to ALL designs submitted, particularly if they don’t win?

Whether you win or not, all files and usage rights are retained by the artist. Even if inXile selects and pays you for your work, you still retain the rights. The rights to the work incontrovertibly belong to the artist.

By the definition of that anti-spec work website, this is not spec work.

Nobody is being asked to work for free. The submissions will be sold at the same price as standard Unity Asset rates, or for whatever price the artist determines (the artist can determine the price, but inXile may decide it is too high for them if you go way beyond standard rates), and all rights are retained by the artist.

Undeniably, inXile is asking modelers to do more pre-detailed work than the more "generic" assets on the Unity Asset store. But the choice to do more generic work or more specific work is always there for people who submit to the Unity Asset store, and any work you submit to the Unity Asset store might not result in you getting paid, if no one is ever interested in using them. The disadvantage is it is less likely to have broad appeal. The advantage is you're getting a direct shot at a submission process with a professional studio. That's a trade-off, but as the artists get to determine their own price and retain all rights, I do not see how it can be defined as spec work.
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Re: Shame on you inxile

Postby CaptainPatch » December 6th, 2012, 1:20 pm

This is actually an age old argument. There is a workplace where workers receive Wage X. But then there is an influx of people that are willing to do the work for less than Wage X. Suddenly the workers that _had_ been earning that wage find that their services are no longer needed. Naturally, those people that had been earning Wage X are quite upset that they no longer have as much earning power. What can they do about it? 1) "You new people! Don't be selling your labor for less than Wage X! It's not good for you, and it's certainly not good for _us_!" 2) "The people that _used to_ pay Wage X are slimy, cheapass bastards by not paying what they know that the work is actually worth!"
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Re: Shame on you inxile

Postby dorkboy » December 6th, 2012, 1:56 pm

thanks for clarifying that, Brother None.

seems to me like it would be a good idea in a situation like this to know which pieces were currently worked on by other people/how many - rather than having everyone going for the sentry gun..

maybe a thread for this? [or it could be a terrible idea, idk..] :?
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Re: Shame on you inxile

Postby Gizmo » December 6th, 2012, 2:12 pm

Brother None wrote:Undeniably, inXile is asking modelers to do more pre-detailed work than the more "generic" assets on the Unity Asset store.
But how long is the offer for? Is this just for the week, the month?
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Re: Shame on you inxile

Postby Drool » December 6th, 2012, 8:19 pm

This is just a repeat of when all the artists where screaming about us writers giving fully-fledged scenarios to inXile for free over the past few months.

Oh wait. That's right. They didn't care about that.
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