POLL - Additions to $30 Tier

[Shady314]

Let's be honest. The real enticement is the portraits.

Wow. I could not agree less. Not only is this game fairly likely to hit the $3M and get a modkit so fans can release portrait-packs, I don't even think we'll need modkits for that. I'd be surprised if the game doesn't have an "import portraits" feature so you can add your own.

So the argument continues that porraits are a great way to get more people to up their pledge! Of course we all know they're TOTALLY worthless. I know the mod kit negates the portrait pack. That only makes the entire concept even dumber. Have a reward that's not really a reward because we all say they add nothing to the game and oh really within a few weeks max everyone will have them anyways...? It's mind boggling.

I don't care about portraits anyway. Not everyone does.

So if you don't care obviously no one should? If other people DO care can they get the portrait pack? What about years from now when younger children become old enough to play WL2 and if somehow by magic the portraits actually remained exclusive would it be fair to keep the portraits exclusive?

Sorry, but I have very little sympathy with the people complaining about this. Have you really been that badly burnt by pre-order DLC that even a hint of it sets you off? It's a couple of portraits. Responding to that as if it's the "you have to pay extra for DLC so you can get the full game" won't get you a good response, it's too extreme, too unforgiving a response. It's like saying all DLC they could release afterwards will be bad because publishers have done bad DLC in the past.

Yes I have been. They killed expansions. The blood dragon armor ruined gameplay balance in DA:O. On-disc DLC. Horse Armor. It's now not only common but required to give separate items/armor/etc. based on where you bought the game. I'm hardly the only one to notice. It's ALL ridiculous. Old school to me includes getting away from this marketing BS and just getting the game when you buy the game wherever you buy the game. If I sound extreme it's because this is the stuff DLC started with. Special editions because obviously the really loyal fans deserved that stuff right?

Oh and yes all DLC they could release after means I would never kickstart an inXile game ever again. Expansions yes! I'lll pay gladly. DLC no.

EDIT: And a "couple" of portraits? The update says it doubles the amount of options! That's a lot of extra choice at character creation. Doesn't affect gameplay experience at all you say?

[Brother None]

Have a reward that's not really a reward because we all say they add nothing to the game

A lot of the rewards are like that. You really think stuff like the digital art book and soundtrack won't be widely available soon after release? Admittedly, not legally. But that's just the thing. The rewards are nice little tokens of thanks. You're not *buying* something in the store, that's the wrong mindset, you're donating and getting tokens of thanks in return. It doesn't have the same economic mechanic.

So if you don't care obviously no one should?

No, but you were implying everyone felt about portrait packs like you do. They don't.

The blood dragon armor ruined gameplay balance in DA:O. On-disc DLC. Horse Armor.

That's cool, but none of those are comparable. Horse Armor is an item you purchase, whereas this is free with two copies of the game that are lower than retail price. And gameplay balance?

Old school to me includes getting away from this marketing BS and just getting the game when you buy the game wherever you buy the game. If I sound extreme it's because this is the stuff DLC started with.

So you thought it was a reset button? That Fargo should feel obligated not to do certain things even when they make sense because evil publishers did them? That sounds like you're not against marketing at all, you just want it to be marketed specifically to your group of people upset with publishers, regardless of what is actually best for the project.

Oh and yes all DLC they could release after means I would never kickstart an inXile game ever again. Expansions yes! I'lll pay gladly. DLC no.

Of course it'll have DLC. DLC just means "downloadable content", which is how it'll release any expansion.

Doesn't affect gameplay experience at all you say?

Pretty much.

[ET3D]

Some people speculated as to what makes people at the $15 level upgrade to $30, so I will offer my anecdotal point of view. The second copy plus the dev diaries were mainly what sold me on the upgrade, but also the examples of concept art which were posted and convinced me it would be a book I'll enjoy looking at.

[Shady314]

A lot of the rewards are like that. You really think stuff like the digital art book and soundtrack won't be widely available soon after release? Admittedly, not legally. But that's just the thing. The rewards are nice little tokens of thanks. You're not *buying* something in the store, that's the wrong mindset, you're donating and getting tokens of thanks in return. It doesn't have the same economic mechanic.

I'm well aware. Not once have I compared this to a store. That's why I've never complained about the shirt tier like others have. I realize every physical item they produce is money actually taken out of the pledge.
As for people illegally procuring pledge rewards I am not a thief and other people being thieves does not make it ok or really have much bearing on the discussion. I'm the one arguing to share more rewards with other backers in case you forgot.
I don't even know why you bring it up. Portrait pack is ok because we both accept people are just going to steal it anyways? Like I said that only makes the whole thing more absurd if we both expect non-backers to get it anyways.

No, but you were implying everyone felt about portrait packs like you do. They don't.

I most certainly was not. I said many and pointed to the popularity of portrait packs in many games and I would also mention the popularity of cosmetic DLC as well. I tried to use actual facts to lend veracity to my claims. The poll makes it pretty obvious not everyone agrees with me.

That's cool, but none of those are comparable. Horse Armor is an item you purchase, whereas this is free with two copies of the game that are lower than retail price. And gameplay balance?

Ok let me mention a more applicable DLC. ME2 removed the ability to equip your NPCs and change their appearance like you could in ME1. In return we got to pay for costume packs to alter the team mates appearance in very minor ways. People paid for that. Because lot's of people DO care about that stuff. Is this AS bad as that? Obviously not. But this sort of thing was the precursor to the real BS.

So you thought it was a reset button? That Fargo should feel obligated not to do certain things even when they make sense because evil publishers did them? That sounds like you're not against marketing at all, you just want it to be marketed specifically to your group of people upset with publishers, regardless of what is actually best for the project.

First of all those are some amazing stretches in an attempt to read my mind. Especially like the argument about a "reset button". As if fan funding and Kickstarter have never been presented as a reset button for people fed up with current games. Certainly no one has ever said or implied this game would have the spirit of an old school RPG like we haven't been able to get for a long time. Not like it was the essence of the entire pitch Fargo made right? Or after the "social media" kerfluffle he never reassured us he was making an old school RPG.

I'm not one of those people that seem to hope WL2 would use the same cumbersome UI or static sprites of WL. But did I hope Fargo and Co. would completely avoid some of the worst excesses of the publishing industry he lambastes so thoroughly in his first kickstarter video? Yes. I really don't see how that is insane or even unreasonable.

Note I said hope not demand or even expect.

Of course it'll have DLC. DLC just means "downloadable content", which is how it'll release any expansion.

Really? Are you so desperate to win an argument on the internet we have to resort to semantics. I believe you know very well that I don't mean something downloaded from the internet when I say DLC. Do you want to have a real discussion or what?

Pretty much.

Well if we accept your premise that portraits and other such cosmetic variations add absolutely nothing of value to the game then you are right. But are you seriously arguing NO one cares about them? And if we accept that at least some people do care then obviously for them the gameplay experience IS enhanced don't you agree?

Some people speculated as to what makes people at the $15 level upgrade to $30, so I will offer my anecdotal point of view. The second copy plus the dev diaries were mainly what sold me on the upgrade, but also the examples of concept art which were posted and convinced me it would be a book I'll enjoy looking at.

See this is great! If we accept the portrait pack had no bearing on a single person then the entire purpose of including it at all is the height of absurdity! Either it has value to some people and we must accept portrait packs thus matter at some level or it matters to no one and we must conclude there is no reason to have ever come up with it as a reward at all! It's honestly become fascinating to me.

[Brother None]

In return we got to pay for costume packs to alter the team mates appearance in very minor ways. People paid for that. Because lot's of people DO care about that stuff. Is this AS bad as that? Obviously not. But this sort of thing was the precursor to the real BS.

Is it? People pay for the costume pack. No one is paying for this. It's a gift (since you get two copies with the $30 tier, everything else in the tier is de facto a gift), but one with limited claim time. It will never be sold.

But did I hope Fargo and Co. would completely avoid some of the worst excesses of the publishing industry he lambastes so thoroughly in his first kickstarter video? Yes.

And he did. He's not releasing nickel and dime DLC. He's not affected the gameplay balance or non-cosmetic experience of gamers in any way. At best, it is analogues to the "worst excusses" of the publishing industry, it certainly isn't equitable, so effectively, he did avoid.

Are you so desperate to win an argument on the internet we have to resort to semantics. I believe you know very well that I don't mean something downloaded from the internet when I say DLC.

No I don't, because that's all DLC means. Some DLC like GTA IV's is bigger. Some is nickel and dime, which inXile won't do. Some is middle-tier, like the DLC for Fallout 3 or New Vegas. I wouldn't be surprised at all if inXile releases a similar-sized DLC for like 5 bucks down the line. Is that lambastable because it is the same model as the industry uses, or is it fine because the price-content balance is tilted in favor of the consumer? See, it's rarely black-and-white.

But are you seriously arguing NO one cares about them? And if we accept that at least some people do care then obviously for them the gameplay experience IS enhanced don't you agree?

Of course. Just like my experience is enhanced from owning pre-release novellas that contain background lore and hints about the game. Just like early beta people will get to experience more of the game in content later to be cut. A lot of things impact gameplay experience. You have to draw a line somewhere, or be absolute and include everything. Your line is "anything in the final game", mine is "anything that impacts the final game in a way that impacts gameplay and balance". Can't really say either of us are wrong, just that yours is a minority opinion (from the limited poll we have).

[kopi]

Brother None, defender of pre-order DLC. I didn't expect that.

Will the game contain any form of day-one or small DLC (not expansion pack-sized ones post-release)?

Brian Fargo: "Hell no there won't be day one DLC... everything is going to the game as it should be. I feel like I've been taken advantage of in other games in which they tried to sell me stuff that was already completed. This isn't a free to play model. Now of course I might insist on a red boots DLC pack for fun."

[Brother None]

Brian Fargo: "Hell no there won't be day one DLC... everything is going to the game as it should be. I feel like I've been taken advantage of in other games in which they tried to sell me stuff that was already completed. This isn't a free to play model. Now of course I might insist on a red boots DLC pack for fun."

Yip. As he says, there won't be day one DLC being sold. Because none of this will be purchased, by anyone. If this or similar nickel and dime DLC were on offer as separate products for sale before or after release, I would be furious. Because that would be profiteering. This is a gift to encourage people, and money that will not actually be turned to profits since it's all going into development.

[SkyeFyre]

My initial answer was that I was fine with the portraits because it was cosmetic. I have been burned enough by stupid DLC to the point where I refuse to buy DLC at all. After thinking about it a bit I began to dislike the idea more and more because it changed the core experience that everyone would experience. It's a different game for everyone.

Now I'm coming back the other way again. If it is not included with any other copy of the game, and is exclusive to backers, then what makes it any different than a genuine collector's item? The industry throws around the words "Collector's Edition" like it's candy. Remember Halo 2? For the longest time that game's collector's edition sold more copies than the regular copy. So which copy was really the collector's edition?

Basically my point is, if it's done like a true collector's edition. Where it is something rare that only a few people get, which is no different than getting a limited signed piece of art, or a record (You know, vinyl) which only had a limited number of runs. I have a limited edition, die cut, LP, still in it's original plastic. Is the world unfair because I got this? Other people can get the album, but they can't have the one I have. It's a TRUE collector's item.

As you can see I've seen both sides of the issue, and I am in no way trying to change your mind. I respect your point of view (I even shared it at one point), but I just wanted to share mine.

I am once again fine with the portraits being something unique.

[Temaperacl]

lol, I can understand that and respect our difference in the aspect of Special Editions. I tip my hat to you and will politely agree to disagree on the matter as we're both gamers who only wish the best for the game.

I can agree to this disagreement. I understand where people who don't mind this are coming from and, while we may disagree in regards to the methods being used, ultimately our goals for this project are the same.

[Brother None]

lol, I can understand that and respect our difference in the aspect of Special Editions. I tip my hat to you and will politely agree to disagree on the matter as we're both gamers who only wish the best for the game.

I can agree to this disagreement. I understand where people who don't mind this are coming from and, while we may disagree in regards to the methods being used, ultimately our goals for this project are the same.

I agree. I respect the principled nature of the people who object to these ingame pre-order cosmetic/funny bonuses, I simply feel the tradeoff make it not a big deal. I can understand feeling otherwise.

Let's just hope we reach $3M so the modkit can help alleviate some of those problems

[Jammet]

I was sorta hoping the portraits could be all customised through images on your harddrive. In Icewind Dale I just uploaded my own selfmade BMP and insta-happy! But anyway, if they can't be changed this freely, and as long as not everyone looks either butt ugly or grim beyond any means of rescue, I'm good with having these extra for backers. But I'm kinda wondering how you even hope to accomplish this task if no DRM is supposed to be involved.

/edit: Okay, I've seen now that I can do exactly that. Cheers!

[Crinkles]

I was sorta hoping the portraits could be all customised through images on your harddrive. In Icewind Dale I just uploaded my own selfmade BMP and insta-happy! But anyway, if they can't be changed this freely, and as long as not everyone looks either butt ugly or grim beyond any means of rescue, I'm good with having these extra for backers. But I'm kinda wondering how you even hope to accomplish this task if no DRM is supposed to be involved.

From what I've heard, you'll be able to import your own portraits. As for how they want to go with the no DRM route, they can always offer different version downloads for different people. Instead of "unlocking" content with your super-special code like in most games, you get a version of the game which simply comes with extra content.

[Keaton]

Actually I just wanted to pledge money to my favorite project. I don't care about rewards except having already bought the game by pledging.
The whole "special character portrait" thing is pointless because the rest would just add them later anyway.
Soundtrack, concept art book, the novella, all nice rewards, I appreciate them, but extra portraits, exclusive game content dependent on pledges? No, I don't like that and don't need it too.

But it's no biggie either, shouldn't influence the game too much and I guess everybody else can just add these portraits if they want them.

[Shady314]

Is it? People pay for the costume pack. No one is paying for this.

Wait what? People are getting this without giving the company money is that what you are saying?

It's a gift (since you get two copies with the $30 tier, everything else in the tier is de facto a gift), but one with limited claim time. It will never be sold.

Oh I see more ridiculous semantics. Have you ever worked in marketing because this sort of pretzel like logic and excuses are exactly the sort of arguments they and their supporters usually use. Pre-order DLC is a "gift" for loyal fans. You're not paying for it. It comes with the game when you buy it new. Etc.

And he did.

Not completely like I had hoped.

He's not releasing nickel and dime DLC. He's not affected the gameplay balance or non-cosmetic experience of gamers in any way. At best, it is analogues to the "worst excusses" of the publishing industry, it certainly isn't equitable, so effectively, he did avoid.

How many times must I agree with you before you will move onto substantive arguments? I agree this is not AS bad as nickel and dime DLC. I agree this is not AS bad as other forms as DLC. I agree this is all relatively minor for many reasons. Can you stop trying to pretend I have ever said this was the end of the world, the same as the worst DLCs ever, etc. I only brought them up because you askedme why my hatred of DLC is so vehement. You brought them into the conversation by asking me about them. I didn't bring them up as a direct comparison.

No I don't, because that's all DLC means. Some DLC like GTA IV's is bigger. Some is nickel and dime, which inXile won't do.

Fine let's pretend your just defending the dictionary and not arguing trivialities. So yes I concede your point. DLC has existed since the first day we downloaded something from the internet. From henceforth I shall refer to every single thing I download as DLC. Moving on.
Bigger does not make it ok. You don't KNOW inXile won't do that anymore than I do. You just strongly believe that like I do. That's why seeing even this admittedly very minor form of DLC is annoying.

Some is middle-tier, like the DLC for Fallout 3 or New Vegas. I wouldn't be surprised at all if inXile releases a similar-sized DLC for like 5 bucks down the line. Is that lambastable because it is the same model as the industry uses, or is it fine because the price-content balance is tilted in favor of the consumer? See, it's rarely black-and-white.

Except all 4 story DLCs are even now $10 not nearly as good a content to cost ratio as an expansion. I only bought them because 1) there was a great steam sale bundling them together 2) I LOVE Obsidian and I chose to grin and bear it to support them. 3) I chose to believe Obsidian did DLC over an expansion because the publisher/Bethesda force them.
(Probably naive but <Shrug>)
Now I can't tell myself anyone is forcing inXile so for me it IS black and white. If they engage in any form of DLC instead of expansions and I am giving up on them. It would have to be something really substantive for a low price to overcome my now automatic revulsion.

Of course. Just like my experience is enhanced from owning pre-release novellas that contain background lore and hints about the game. Just like early beta people will get to experience more of the game in content later to be cut. A lot of things impact gameplay experience. You have to draw a line somewhere, or be absolute and include everything. Your line is "anything in the final game", mine is "anything that impacts the final game in a way that impacts gameplay and balance". Can't really say either of us are wrong, just that yours is a minority opinion (from the limited poll we have).

Yes that is where I draw the line because it's a pretty natural place to do so and where the vast majority of outrage over pre-order bonuses come from. Whether those bonuses affect gameplay or graphics I have no idea what the difference is. Can't have a game without gameplay or graphics. Yet you would be upset if they cut or added to gameplay but shrug when they cut or add something graphically. Some people play games for the art within them and care little to nothing for the actual gameplay.
Arguing novellas and such enhance the game is disingenuous. They enhance your appreciation/love of the setting and characters perhaps but not the actual game itself. A huge Star Wars fan may love the EU to death but that does not actually enhance Tie Fighter or Jedi: Outcast. As for Beta that is again just extremely disingenuous. Betas have never been something gamers expected to be made available to everyone that purchased a game so there is nothing anti old school about restricting beta testers however the company feels fit.
Very true that neither of us is wrong. This just boils down to different principles/priorities and preferences. But I am shocked you'd make such a tired throw away argument to being in a minority. No reason to be mad at publishers for making everything FPS then. It is undeniably what the majority of gamers want. Technically true but that doesn't dismiss or invalidate us turn based top down/isometric fans.

I agree. I respect the principled nature of the people who object to these ingame pre-order cosmetic/funny bonuses, I simply feel the tradeoff make it not a big deal. I can understand feeling otherwise.

I agree this itself is not a big deal. The part that is frustrating to me is people seem to have entirely forgotten the awful DLC started with exactly this small stuff people shrugged their shoulders at. The slippery slope argument at the time seemed ridiculous. The bonuses were so small and often easily gotten around so who really cared? Over a decade later though and we get From Ashes. I'm not saying inXile is going to turn into EA just saying the most frustrating part for me was never this DLC itself but the communities reaction to it. I'd expected Kickstarters obviously generous nature to shine through and most people would insist on sharing in-game content with everyone. That's what happened when HBS suggested a special backers only nostalgia mission. I'd hoped Kickstarter people would also remember history and have learned their lesson. Same game for everyone no more exceptions.

[Emmy Lou]

Personally, I wouldn't be miffed if when the game comes out they offered the things they offered at $30 level to buyers in Oct '13 as a DLC that costs 5% of what the retail game costs. This way, they're still technically kickstart "backers" due to kicking-it-forward, even if they didn't back WL2 in the first place. Hell, this would probably be less than the $15 it would cost to go from the minimum to $30, but this shouldn't matter because the spirit of Kickstarter is about helping create a great game in the first place, not being a kicking and screaming child because someone else gets to play with the same toys as you.

The quirky skill should be the only thing off limits, IMO. On principle.

[Yutty]

i'm tempted to put in 15 just for cause having double the portraits available seems like alot to missing out on. Did they mention what would happend if we hit 3mil? only a couple hours left

[Drool]

Fully developed modkit:

The third most asked about feature is for us to provide a mod kit to allow players to create their own scenarios. I have always loved those kinds of tool-sets to set players loose to keep the world expanding. To create these kinds of tools is time consuming and requires a separate team of guys to do it. While we are not ready to commit to that feature yet, we can say that if we were to hit 3 million dollars, it would be possible to do a mod kit without cutting into the plan for the main game.

[Yutty]

damn...they made me give in cause of those portraits and since i played & loved so many interplay/black isle games.