XCOM Enemy Unknown

[tuluse]

Zombra, do you consider Civilizations complex games?

In the end, those games can be player with only 1 button: Mouse click.

Is it this horribly oversimplified?

You couldn't do everything in the first Civ game with just a mouse

Anyways, you the point is that it would be really annoying. Something I posted earlier in the thread. You could play Civ with an Xbox controller. You would use a control stick to move the cursor, and the A button for left click. It would work, it would also suck, and be hated by everyone.

[Zombra]

Every game can theoretically be played with just one button. Yes, every game. However, when you design a game from the ground up for a simple interface, you are generally going to design a simple game.

And, as tuluse said, if you make it complex, it will be annoying as fuck to actually play.

[Mandemon]

However, when you design a game from the ground up for a simple interface, you are generally going to design a simple game.

WROOOOOOOOONG </lexluthor>

Simple interface is pretty much first thing you design. You want interface to be something player can use. Simple game can have complex interface. Complex game can have simple interface.

Fallout 1 & 2 are pretty complex games, wouldn't you agree? Yet, interface is rather simple. Turn buttons on right bottom corner, messages right corner, weapon in middle... It's very simple.

Also, I think you are confusing controls and the interface.

[tuluse]

However, when you design a game from the ground up for a simple interface, you are generally going to design a simple game.

WROOOOOOOOONG </lexluthor>

Simple interface is pretty much first thing you design. You want interface to be something player can use. Simple game can have complex interface. Complex game can have simple interface.

Fallout 1 & 2 are pretty complex games, wouldn't you agree? Yet, interface is rather simple. Turn buttons on right bottom corner, messages right corner, weapon in middle... It's very simple.

Also, I think you are confusing controls and the interface.

The controls are part of the interface, I think you are confusing interface with graphical interface.

[Zombra]

Simple interface is pretty much first thing you design. You want interface to be something player can use. Simple game can have complex interface. Complex game can have simple interface.

True - a simpler* interface that does the same thing is better than a more complex one. The question is, what can the design do?

*Assuming that simpler also means more efficient. Hitting a button 3 times to step left and 5 times to step right is very simple, but still horribly bad. This is the kind of thing you get with nested radial menus - simple, but cumbersome.

To me, it's simpler and more efficient to press M for map and J for journal. Not right trigger, stick-southwest, release trigger for map and right trigger, stick-north-by-northeast, release trigger for journal. 360 controls are often more complex despite using fewer buttons.

Let me put it another way.

If you design a game to be played with one button, that limitation is going to inform the entire design. In fact it will restrict the entire design. The game either has to be simple, or the interface has to be cumbersome. That's the bottom line.

According to that article, XCom's interface is far from cumbersome.

[Woolfe]

Zombra, do you consider Civilizations complex games?

In the end, those games can be player with only 1 button: Mouse click.

Is it this horribly oversimplified?

You couldn't do everything in the first Civ game with just a mouse

Anyways, you the point is that it would be really annoying. Something I posted earlier in the thread. You could play Civ with an Xbox controller. You would use a control stick to move the cursor, and the A button for left click. It would work, it would also suck, and be hated by everyone.

Um... I play Civ like that. The only time I tend to use more than just the mouse is when I decide to rename something.

However the control method difference between a mouse and a gamepad is enormous. Fine adjustment especially is difficult on a gamepad, so Zombra's argument is still very valid.

To me, it's simpler and more efficient to press M for map and J for journal. Not right trigger, stick-southwest, release trigger for map and right trigger, stick-north-by-northeast, release trigger for journal. 360 controls are often more complex despite using fewer buttons.

Indeed, and this where the mouse excels over a Gamepad.
There is a reason that gaming went from "Joysticks" to Keyboard and mouse way back when. The reason is still very valid today. Oh sure Gamepads and Joysticks are good controllers, and they excel in certain areas (platformers, Flying, racing games etc) but for fine control you still can't beat a keyboard and mouse.
It really is nonsensical that console makers and Game devs don't simply allow keyboard and mouse support on the consoles. Almost EVERY household has a keyboard and mouse, and do you know what, if they don't its not like they are expensive kit. The only reason I can see that they don't do it, is that they
A - want to charge for peripherals
B - Are trying to differentiate themselves from PC

[Zombra]

A - want to charge for peripherals

Seriously. $60 for a 360 controller? Or $50 for a cheap knockoff that breaks in a year? Fuck you Microsoft.

[Woolfe]

A - want to charge for peripherals

Seriously. $60 for a 360 controller? Or $50 for a cheap knockoff that breaks in a year? Fuck you Microsoft.

Indeed Though they all do it, not just MS.

Altho in all fairness, I have the Xbox 360 gamepad for my pc. And its pretty good (even tho I prefer the old Sony PS2 ones the best). Curiously in Aus we get them for around that price or cheaper.... Which is funny considering we pay soooo much more for games generally.

[suz]

The first shot is always free

[Hiver]

you know... i said they are making a separate Ui and control scheme for PC so all this bitching about game being playable with gamepad is rather pointless.

That misses the point.

The point is that they sat down on Day One and said, "Let's make a 14-button game." Whether or not they adapt it to mouse & keyboard later won't change its lack of complexity, unless you're suggesting that they change all the rules and add more gameplay options for the PC version.

You have no idea what they did and what they said.

Also, they are not just "adapting" it to mouse and keyboard.
But you would need to actually listen some interviews for that.

[Zombra]

You have no idea what they did and what they said.

Of course I do. It's sheer common sense. Did they start out to make a PC only game or a multi-platform game? Did they expect to sell this in a package with a full keyboard for console users? What a joke. On day one, they said, OK, the UI has to accomodate a controller as the sole means of input. If they didn't, they are idiots, and they're not idiots.

Also, they are not just "adapting" it to mouse and keyboard.
But you would need to actually listen some interviews for that.

If you're going to slam me for making assumptions about the devs, don't turn around and make assumptions about me. I've seen several interviews, but maybe not all of them. Educate me. Let's see a link to an interview that debunks me.

[snakeoil]

after watching the vid i gotta say, all these commander/soldier of a military organisation crap games are so dull and boring. i can only hope wasteland 2 will in no way be similar to xcom. i played the original xcom and did enjoy it back then but seriously, this is exactly the kind of remake i DONT want to see. seeing the dull turn based combat, i am very afraid of inxile putting the focus too much on combat, which in my opinion didnt made wasteland 1 the good game it was. and why is the fucking military always the good guys in videogames? they are killers contracted to governments. why is there no game where civilians are forced to defend themselves against militarism, with all the horror and suffering that is reality? luckily the vision document has already stated that it will be possible to let your party fight without micro managing the tactics.

the xcom remake should focus on basedeveloping, research and exploring, but i guess its easier to entertain with stupid effect fireworks than actually developing a smart story driven game. i am so sick of this military bullshit... i am a adult i dont need the childish power fantasies.

[tuluse]

[quote="Woolfe"
Um... I play Civ like that. The only time I tend to use more than just the mouse is when I decide to rename something.

However the control method difference between a mouse and a gamepad is enormous. Fine adjustment especially is difficult on a gamepad, so Zombra's argument is still very valid. [/quote]

You don't even use the right mouse button? Dear god man.

[Mandemon]

Any game optimized for XBox controller will not have the gameplay depth of an old school PC title. That's flat. Go ahead and flame me for saying that, guys; I've got my asbestos underwear on.

You have no idea what they did and what they said.

Of course I do. It's sheer common sense. Did they start out to make a PC only game or a multi-platform game? Did they expect to sell this in a package with a full keyboard for console users? What a joke. On day one, they said, OK, the UI has to accomodate a controller as the sole means of input. If they didn't, they are idiots, and they're not idiots.

Just having console controller does not mean game is any less complex than on PC.

Look at the Final Fantasy games. First Final Fantasy was made for controller that had whooping 5 buttons: D-Pad, Start, Select, A, B.

What about Nintendo Wars, turn-based war game? Legend of Zelda? Metroid? Earthbound Zero, AKA Mother?

Console control =/= bad. It can be can be complex as fuck, but it doesn't mean you need to make interface hard as fuck too. You could make interface one of the most simple thing in the video game, easily navigated by D-Pad.

Only thing PC has in advantage is ease of mouse and keyboard shortcuts (instead of pressing Start->Menu->Journal, you press J) and slightly more games for simulation games. Only if game is intentionally made use 14+ keys for essential actions, with no way to combine them, then PC wins. But at that point, you are destining interface that is supposed to frustrate and be hated.

[ButchinMelancholy]

the xcom remake should focus on basedeveloping, research and exploring, but i guess its easier to entertain with stupid effect fireworks than actually developing a smart story driven game. i am so sick of this military bullshit... i am a adult i dont need the childish power fantasies.

Except that the main plot is still that aliens are invading earth and killing everybody, so... there's a point where this game has to be what it is.

But I am completely agree with the fact that the military institution is obnoxious. Not especially the people in it, and not because I have Che Guevara posters in my room (I mean, that's not the case, simple cliche), but because this is basically power against the people, contrary to the foolish belief they try to convey...
So yes, fed up with military games too.


@Mandemon: I'm always amused by people trying to find arguments that controllers can match PC peripherals... That's vain. They are just better for a very few kind of games, because of their sticks, and that's all, everything else is better with mouse and keyboard, implying that many games can't be decently designed without taking advantage of their possibilities. That's partly why most PC-typed games have been dumbed down today, for consoles, which doesn't mean that you can't have deep games on consoles either, it's a different issue. There's no need to masturbate more than that on this matter.

[Mandemon]

@Mandemon: I'm always amused by people trying to find arguments that controllers can match PC peripherals... That's vain. They are just better for a very few kind of games, because of their sticks, and that's all, everything else is better with mouse and keyboard, implying that many games can't be decently designed without taking advantage of their possibilities. That's partly why most PC-typed games have been dumbed down today, for consoles, which doesn't mean that you can't have deep games on consoles either, it's a different issue. There's no need to masturbate more than that on this matter.

My problem is not "Keyboard+mouse is better than controller", no.

My problem is "Control pad, thus dumbed down mainstream shit" attitude. Control can be anything. What matters is the game itself. Not the controller. What I posted are examples that games can be complex despite having simple interface or using controller pad.

Gamers these days annoy me. Everything is "dumbed down", which is pretty much just saying "I don't need to have high school diploma to figure out what buttons to press, thus anybody could play this, which is bad!". Basically, game scene has too many hipsters you only remember "good old days", but not the shit that was also produced but can remember every single thing wrong even in AAA-game, but try to point out that something has improved it gets ignored.

[tuluse]

My problem is not "Keyboard+mouse is better than controller", no.

My problem is "Control pad, thus dumbed down mainstream shit" attitude. Control can be anything. What matters is the game itself. Not the controller. What I posted are examples that games can be complex despite having simple interface or using controller pad.

Gamers these days annoy me. Everything is "dumbed down", which is pretty much just saying "I don't need to have high school diploma to figure out what buttons to press, thus anybody could play this, which is bad!". Basically, game scene has too many hipsters you only remember "good old days", but not the shit that was also produced but can remember every single thing wrong even in AAA-game, but try to point out that something has improved it gets ignored.

I don't think anyone in this thread is saying this.

We are saying that game cannot be as complex with a 14 button controller with analog sticks compared to a mouse and keyboard.

No one has said complex = good.

However, some of us do miss the days when some (that is some, not all) games were incredibly complex and really made you dig into them to play them well.

Trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator certainly has more of an effect than input device, but input device does have an effect. That's the reason fighting game fans buy arcade sticks, and racing fans buy wheels, and flying fans buy joysticks because input device does have an effect.

[ButchinMelancholy]

What I posted are examples that games can be complex despite having simple interface or using controller pad.

Yes, you can have complex mechanics, but not complex gameplay. That's the difference, and this is partly why "next-gen" consoles are pretty much basically garbage. Instead of keeping their own genres (and continue to evolve that way), they wanted to take over the whole market with their sole machines, so they decided to make theirs the most popular PC genres because they had the most "showtime" potential to impress lambda people while permitting them to cover that area as well.
So yes, PC games are dumbed down because of consoles nowadays, but it's not all about complexity. Take FPSes for example, overall they feel much more slow and heavy than before, and that's not because they're all searching for "realism"... Found some good sensations again with Tribes: Ascend lately, a PC exclusive game (not) surprisingly.

That said, I'm agree that many people are being quite reactionary, but that's because they have been burnt and can't pass that, so they trust good old memories and nostalgia rather than the current industry...

[snakeoil]

sorry guys but i think the complexity discussion is completely wrong in many ways.
first of all, technically, games have not dumbed down, in fact the interface of games generally got smarter, more user friendly. this is a result of the games content dumbing down due to risen production costs which leads the games industry to make endless sequels which do not differ contentwise but in accessibility/interface and graphics. that said, interfaces got better (just as graphics) but games content got dumber.
secondly, the pc-games complexity is an illusion. games most gamers would call complex are mainly strategy games or simulations. this is not connected to the input device but the platform they are played on. i can plugin a keyboard and a mouse to my ps3 (making it mathematically as complex as a standard pc) but strategy games simply dont sell on console, thats why people who play on pc only get the wrong impression that strategy games and simulations which sell better on the pc market has something to do with plattform specifics (pad).
third, a game like gran turismo 5 is a highly complex simulation which is on one level with the most complex pc-games there are. it has nothing to do with the input device, but with the technology under the bonnet.
and lastly, a 14 button pad with 2 analog buttons and 2 analog sticks is actually as complex as a keyboard and a mouse. button combinations which are standard in videogames extend a 14 button pad to as much buttons as needed. no game uses all keys on a keyboard simulanuosly either. its not a bad development, it has just changed thats all.

the days of idiotically clunky games that came with a printed keyboard layout like gunship 2000 are luckily over and will never come back. where back in the days games tried to copy reality, reality now tries to copy the user oriented interfaces of games in many ways. people shouldnt fight over complexity of input devices (LOL) but content that really makes the game.

[tuluse]

Gran Turismo's physics don't come close to rFactor (a PC game).

I have yet to see a shooter as complex as the old mechwarrior games or even the PC version of Splinter Cell (where you could control your speed with the mouse wheel and was much more granular than a thumb stick). I have yet to see any game in the last 5 years have the complexity of System Shock 2 or Deus Ex in terms of game play.