After Game Like Catherine,Open Narrative Feels Unimpressive

[RetreatToLove]

Catherine presented us with thought-provoking, profound subject matter, elucidates us through the puzzle mechanic the phases adults must go through. The mechanics stands in close juxtaposition with the narrative. Its contemporary setting, contemporary conflicts feel familiar and intimate, resembling Yasojiro Ozu's Tokyo Story or Akira Kurosawa's Ikiru, life-affirming stories that stand the test of time.

Quest-based narrative just feels like incoherent rambling of a drunk,socialist bar attendant who randomly quotes Karl Marx for credibility, resembling garbage like comic books that seem to incorporate some political,scientific interests to look mature, although they are still seen as juvenile garbage without artistic merit.

Ultimately, quest-based stories have to disappear. They can not compete with the likes of Syberia or Catherine.

[grot]

A very good point; the deconstructionist sensibilities of Dragon Age 2, for example, served a similar function of undermining the outdated 'Grand Narrative' concerns of former quest-based systems - and particularly the false dichotomy of 'main quest' and 'side quest'. It was a game that revelled in a Bakhtinesque subversion of traditional quest-system hierarchies in which the so-called 'FedEx quest' and 'filler quest' might be required to be completed in order to proceed through the 'plot', and any number of so-called 'choices' might prove themselves, in true Baudrillardian style, to be mere simulacra without noticeable consequence.

'Levels' and 'enemies' are multiplied endlessly, in a sensational attack upon the dilution-effect of mass production, until finally they lose all value; the protagonist is reduced to a hand-wringing academic chorus, commenting upon the action in one of three (a typically droll reference to 'Christian' values) personality types but unable to influence history's collapse; finally, characters presumed to be adults dwelling in a quasi-medieval world speak with the inflections and preoccupations of modern-day adolescents, puncturing the pomposities of more typical 'heroic fantasy' and twisting our linear impressions of history in upon themselves.

[Drool]

Quest-based narrative just feels like incoherent rambling of a drunk,socialist bar attendant who randomly quotes Karl Marx for credibility, resembling garbage like comic books that seem to incorporate some political,scientific interests to look mature, although they are still seen as juvenile garbage without artistic merit.

You're so cute. I could just eat you up.

[ffordesoon]

Catherine presented us with thought-provoking, profound subject matter, elucidates us through the puzzle mechanic the phases adults must go through. The mechanics stands in close juxtaposition with the narrative. Its contemporary setting, contemporary conflicts feel familiar and intimate, resembling Yasojiro Ozu's Tokyo Story or Akira Kurosawa's Ikiru, life-affirming stories that stand the test of time.

Quest-based narrative just feels like incoherent rambling of a drunk,socialist bar attendant who randomly quotes Karl Marx for credibility, resembling garbage like comic books that seem to incorporate some political,scientific interests to look mature, although they are still seen as juvenile garbage without artistic merit.

Ultimately, quest-based stories have to disappear. They can not compete with the likes of Syberia or Catherine.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

*wipes tear of laughter from eye*

Yeah, no. But thanks for playing!

A very good point; the deconstructionist sensibilities of Dragon Age 2, for example, served a similar function of undermining the outdated 'Grand Narrative' concerns of former quest-based systems - and particularly the false dichotomy of 'main quest' and 'side quest'. It was a game that revelled in a Bakhtinesque subversion of traditional quest-system hierarchies in which the so-called 'FedEx quest' and 'filler quest' might be required to be completed in order to proceed through the 'plot', and any number of so-called 'choices' might prove themselves, in true Baudrillardian style, to be mere simulacra without noticeable consequence.

'Levels' and 'enemies' are multiplied endlessly, in a sensational attack upon the dilution-effect of mass production, until finally they lose all value; the protagonist is reduced to a hand-wringing academic chorus, commenting upon the action in one of three (a typically droll reference to 'Christian' values) personality types but unable to influence history's collapse; finally, characters presumed to be adults dwelling in a quasi-medieval world speak with the inflections and preoccupations of modern-day adolescents, puncturing the pomposities of more typical 'heroic fantasy' and twisting our linear impressions of history in upon themselves.

Heh. I bet he won't notice what you're really saying.

[paultakeda]

RetreatToLove, you just enjoy bringing up different genre games, claim they are superior, and wish Wasteand 2, already determined to be a classic RPG with its party-based system, turn-based combat and open sandbox quest environment, would be better off NOT bringing back that lost genre, don't you?

[Infinitron]

I love this thread.

[Lucius]

What's with the drunk socialist bar attendant hate????

[RetreatToLove]

It's just imperceivable that someone would play something as unfocused as open world game without any narrative direction. It's not even about 'feeling of accomplishing' something, because that starts when you turn off the computer. You want to entertain yourself, that's the only impactful, detectable accomplishments. If the story is life-affirming like Ingmar Bergmann's or Akira Kurosawa's , the better.

I burned out pretty quickly playing SkyRim (21 hours), Fallout 3 (18 hours), Xenoblade Chronicles ( 35 hours), Deus Ex Human Revolution not as much when playing Syberia or The Witcher 2 or Persona 4 or Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor. The later are just much more focused, fast-moving,endearing , making lasting impressions. Agency is bullshit as far as i'm concerned. Who cares whether you can tackle dungeon F first before the first A, B, C, D, E ones or not ?

As much as i love Galactic Civilizations II and Football Manager 2011, completely open games where you can decide which players to buy and sell, which tactical formations to choose, which technology tree to follow, which political,scientific,economic and moral orientation fit to your heart's desire, it just can not be implemented in an RPG. Remember that those games are menu-oriented, you access them instantly, be it command,squad, inventory, vehicles or statistics in economy or politic. You feel in control in masterminding your milky way or your football club. That happens no where in open-world games (not if you count Harvest Moon or something like that) . The flexibility and specific tasks and the completely open-ended nature does not exist in open world game. Why then giving an illusion that players can achieve such ? Even in Football Manager or Galactic Civilizations II, you are aiming to minor objectives like winning a number of games in a certain period of time to achieve certain point to stay in the league, having the 2nd most military power in galaxy, not spending too many budget on research, building infrastructures to balance your book etc. Those are bit-size objectives that players project into their own minds due to the sheer freedom. The freedom resembles browsing the internet.

If you know that sandbox games can not achieve the freedom of those management games / internet, why not giving something that is focused ? And the best way to present that is in linear narrative, be it branching or not. Entertainment's objective has always been forgetting the passing of time. Why not letting the game arrange the passing of time rather than yourself arranging it in your mind ?

[cmagruder]

Clearly he needs to play some Two Worlds 2.

Hi troll. I recognize you.

[RetreatToLove]

Catherine managed what Mass Effect 3 failed to , presenting a personal, profound story and incorporating agency (branching storylines and multiple endings). With the amount of visual novels in Japan that include multiple endings, developers might want to look there instead of narrative failures like SkyRim, Fallout 3 and Mass Effect 3.

[cmagruder]

Catherine managed what Mass Effect 3 failed to , presenting a personal, profound story and incorporating agency (branching storylines and multiple endings). With the amount of visual novels in Japan that include multiple endings, developers might want to look there instead of narrative failures like SkyRim, Fallout 3 and Mass Effect 3.

You are hilarious.

[deus]

Who cares whether you can tackle dungeon F first before the first A, B, C, D, E ones or not ?

You do, because i like to decide which quest is more suited for my current character build not to mention do exploring on my own.


You do have a point though...storyline with point to point plots dosen't work with sandbox.

Which is why Avallone don't care about writing them for free roaming games, and instead just write modular narrative, and concentrate on that.

Much better result then trying to implement a story which overeach and usually does more harm then good if it fails.


Also...I question your dedication to literature since you focus is solely based on Japaneese infatuation.
Try some Hamsun.


Also...Its 2 days to labor day and I do plan to celebrate with friends...You hurt my feelings

[paultakeda]

Catherine managed what Mass Effect 3 failed to , presenting a personal, profound story and incorporating agency (branching storylines and multiple endings). With the amount of visual novels in Japan that include multiple endings, developers might want to look there instead of narrative failures like SkyRim, Fallout 3 and Mass Effect 3.

I like Catherine. It's a nice game. The multiple endings are based on a simple table of conditions derived from conversation choices (a typical Japanese graphical text adventure game paradigm). You seem to not recognize that this type of visual novel (with a pyramid platform minigame inbetween chapters, or vice versa depending on your point of view) is a completely different sort of game from Wasteland 2.

How are you going to create such a character centric storyline in a game that is designed to revolve around a party of characters that are created by you?

You are suggesting that this is an automatic fail and that Wasteland 2 should be about a guy who has romantic options in a party of girls (one may be a demon, the other just has cat ears) and that the main storyline will be about how he comes to terms with who he is as a ranger as he is sent on futile mission after futile mission.

Because if the game isn't like that then it is a narrative failure, a game play failure, just a plain and simple total failure of a game.

I have no idea why you continue to post these threads when you clearly do not want to play Wasteland 2.

[RetreatToLove]

That's not true. I'm a fan of Advance Wars: Dual Strike, Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stone, Devil Survivor . I love grid-based games,when they are done well (Heroes of Might and Magic VI is not one). I also love game with choices like the aforementioned Football Manager and Galactic Civilizations II. I just don't see the appeal in the highly-revered-'tell your own story' games like Fallout and Elder's Scrolls. And here, the grid-based combat already moves slowly . Shouldn't it be counter-balanced by fast-moving narrative in the fashion of Syberia and Catherine ? And if the story is also life-affirming and endearing,the better , which has never been the case with open world games. That's the only plausible way to do it.

[Son of Max]

You work for Big Ass Games, don't you?

[suz]

Don't feed it

[RetreatToLove]

Catherine is even more niche,more far-out, requires more creativity than something tired, and derivative like post-apocalyptic-RPG like Wasteland 2, so it is not really up to Big-Ass-Games' alley, i'd presume.

[Lucius]

It also sounds like you are a fanboy of eastern games. Ok, this game isn't for you. We get it. Thanks for letting the entire forum know.

[RetreatToLove]

Syberia, Galactic Civilizations and Football Manager are eastern games. Checked.

[paultakeda]

That's not true. I'm a fan of Advance Wars: Dual Strike, Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stone, Devil Survivor . I love grid-based games,when they are done well (Heroes of Might and Magic VI is not one). I also love game with choices like the aforementioned Football Manager and Galactic Civilizations II. I just don't see the appeal in the highly-revered-'tell your own story' games like Fallout and Elder's Scrolls. And here, the grid-based combat already moves slowly . Shouldn't it be counter-balanced by fast-moving narrative in the fashion of Syberia and Catherine ? And if the story is also life-affirming and endearing,the better , which has never been the case with open world games. That's the only plausible way to do it.

You are a fan of JRPGs. You do realize JRPGs are a different type of RPG, right? You have identified western RPGs as bad as a whole, so clearly you do not like the genre. Why are you here trying to turn not only a western RPG but a classic RPG into a JRPG?

I want to play a tell your own story game. I want to create my party, give them personalities, and have them explore the game world. When I play it again, I can create a brand new party, have completely different personalities, and explore the game world again. The possibilities of game play and mood are so far beyond the ability of a JRPG or even a modern main character western RPG it is actually hard for many younger gamers to grasp the concept.

Here's the concept: there is a main narrative interspersed with smaller side stories that your party, a group you have created in their entirety, navigates through. You weave together this narrative into a unique storyline of that party. Characters can die and in fact it's likely some will. New characters are created and join the party. The main narrative may conclude with a party of characters completely different from the ones you created at the start of the narrative. In the end, you have created a story. That is what is special about a classic CRPG and something we have not seen in twenty years.

You want to be told a story. You want to be given a character and you are given a set choice of interactions with other characters. All the cute girls can be romanced. All of them will end up falling in love with you and literally change personality to accommodate you as long as you pick the right options in a dialogue menu. This story is so finite, so limited in creativity, that it is the antithesis of the classic party-based RPG (and main character western RPGs fall in the middle).

That you think Catherine requires creativity is hilarious. That game is fun, but it has one story. One. And it has eight endings for that story. That's it. The creativity of the writer of the story? Fine. The creativity required of you? Uh... nowhere, unless you're talking about the platform puzzle minigame, which you are not because you are arguing about narrative.

This is not your game unless you want to broaden your horizons. It will not be turned into the game you are describing, considering it went to Kickstarter to avoid being turned into a game that's only halfway to what you are describing. If you continue to insist that the classic CRPG is a failure of narrative and game play, then I'm going to have to agree with the rest: you're a troll.