Good Crafting system

[Fuzi0n]

Crafted Item 1
Perhaps you can find plasma ammo, but don't have the skills to fire it, but if you found a shotgun, some wire, a mine, a circuit board, and a sensor, you could make a unique 'Jimmy the quick' sensor mine.

This should definitely be included in the crafting system. You can make mines, ammo, etc.

Rant
But in no way should the crafting system just let you make the same items you find in the world or buy, they should be unique AND HAVE UNIQUE PROPERTIES! some beneficial, some hilarious and some unbelievably terrible, for you and the enemy.

I agree, kinda. I would rather have something like improving the barrel of a rifle (that you have found) giving it unique properties. Or by adding a modification.

[*]Make Crafting Components weight negligible.

I'm not so sure about this... I think the weight of crafting components should be somewhat accurate, like 3g for a marble or something, but not out of proportion making the marble weigh 100g and definitely not negligible.

[nathanknaack]

I personally love the idea of sending schematics back to HQ for development/construction. Since a good portion of the game will take place in California establishing a new Ranger HQ/Outpost I would love to see the outpost continue to grow even without your constantly supplying it. So it would need to support itself through some means.

I was initially against any crafting at all (as it's usually just a poorly-designed time-waster in most games, especially MMOs), but after seeing this, I was inspired to combine it with some of the thoughts in this thread.

Here's an example:

The New Ranger Center is really hurting for a water desalination system, which it needs to grow. In your travels around the wasteland, you meet an old mechanic who claims to be an expert on them. He even has a blueprint for one! Also, he says that he just built a brand new desalination system a few days ago, but the local raiders stole it from him.

From here, you have two options: You can use the blueprint to gather up all of the materials you need for the project and return to the NPC, who helps you build it (this should not be simple - you don't get the parts from killing the rats outside the mechanic's hut), or you can assault the raider base and get one that way. Actually, you have three options; you could do both and end up with two desalination systems, giving one to a local town in exchange for tons of reputation and rewards!

Some of you are going to notice that this is really just a quest with multiple completion options, not a real crafting system. To that I'll reply: "Exactly." Crafting should be something you do to create something really special. Most games confuse "crafting" with "mass production." I don't need to learn the rifle scope recipe; I'm not going to be cranking them out in bulk! Just give me the option, as part of the story, to gather materials and create one awesome scope. Then let me yank it off my old gun and attach it to my new gun whenever I upgrade.

[MinscAndBoo]

Crafted Item 1
Perhaps you can find plasma ammo, but don't have the skills to fire it, but if you found a shotgun, some wire, a mine, a circuit board, and a sensor, you could make a unique 'Jimmy the quick' sensor mine.

This should definitely be included in the crafting system. You can make mines, ammo, etc.

Yes, but what I'm proposing is the mine, or ammo you make is significantly unique, it has to have a specific purpose other than increasing its damage.

Rant
But in no way should the crafting system just let you make the same items you find in the world or buy, they should be unique AND HAVE UNIQUE PROPERTIES! some beneficial, some hilarious and some unbelievably terrible, for you and the enemy.

I agree, kinda. I would rather have something like improving the barrel of a rifle (that you have found) giving it unique properties. Or by adding a modification.

I changed the rant to this:

Rant
In order to add value to the crafting system, I propose these rules:

1) No Crafted Item will act the same way as found or bought items in the world (including weapon mods).
2) Crafted items will include a unique visual feature.
3) The properties of crafted items will vary greatly. From beneficial, to hilarious, to unbelievably terrible both for you and your enemy.

[*]Make Crafting Components weight negligible.

I'm not so sure about this... I think the weight of crafting components should be somewhat accurate, like 3g for a marble or something, but not out of proportion making the marble weigh 100g and definitely not negligible.

I do agree, but I'm worried about weight. It all depends on how the crafting components are used. If most of the blueprints/recipes require 10-20 of one type of component then managing that weight will be a real problem.

For instance one level may contain 50 iron bars. Now if each is 2kg and your max weight is 80kg, then I would have to go in and come out several times in order to transport it elsewhere for storage. In order to make this 'fun' I propose we take away some realism and make the crafting components unrealistically light, because they can't be used for anything else other than recipes.

[Color Blotch]

Good Crafting = Letting the player make what they want to use which is not available to them at that moment in the game.

The only good crafting system - is dead crafting system.

I admit I actually kind of OK with the idea of having certain amount of unique, specific and unlimited sources of raw materials which you can combine in certain ways using a certain skill in order to get a new weapon or upgrade. Accessing those could also be tied with quests of some sort and an interesting plot connected with the overarching story in one way or the other and so on. I'd like such crafting system. Primarily because it WOULDN'T BE A CRAFTING SYSTEM then.

But I wouldn't like a garbage sorting minigame (also known as crafting in RPGs). It's just such an awfully bad idea.

[Drool]

Crafting in a cRPG is always going to leave something to be desired because the player will always think of something the game designer didn't. This isn't an issue in PnP games because you can actually discuss it with the GM who can figure out how it would work, even if it's something stupid ("I want to weld two laser pistols together to make a DOUBLE LASER!"). Since game devs can't come up with every possible permutation, or even every good one, the best players can really hope for is "not too terrible".

Of course, they should try to avoid stupid nonsense, like Doom 3's "you can have a gun or a flashlight out, not both".

[Fuzi0n]

Here's an example:

The New Ranger Center is really hurting for a water desalination system, which it needs to grow. In your travels around the wasteland, you meet an old mechanic who claims to be an expert on them. He even has a blueprint for one! Also, he says that he just built a brand new desalination system a few days ago, but the local raiders stole it from him.

From here, you have two options: You can use the blueprint to gather up all of the materials you need for the project and return to the NPC, who helps you build it (this should not be simple - you don't get the parts from killing the rats outside the mechanic's hut), or you can assault the raider base and get one that way. Actually, you have three options; you could do both and end up with two desalination systems, giving one to a local town in exchange for tons of reputation and rewards!

I really like this idea. I think this would be an awesome mission!

Most games confuse "crafting" with "mass production."

True... kind of reminds of Skyrim (man, they just did SO much wrong in that game imo)

I don't need to learn the rifle scope recipe; I'm not going to be cranking them out in bulk! Just give me the option, as part of the story, to gather materials and create one awesome scope. Then let me yank it off my old gun and attach it to my new gun whenever I upgrade.

Constantly going on missions just to craft a single upgrade or weapon would be overkill in my opinion (although going on a "treasure hunting mission" once in a while would definitely be very cool and rewarding ). I think they should just limit resources. i.e. You go on a mission and also happen to find a single crafting component which will allow you to improve the barrel on that kick ass new rifle you just found, or create an extendended magazine for example. That is a good crafting system in my opinion.

I admit I actually kind of OK with the idea of having certain amount of unique, specific and unlimited sources of raw materials which you can combine in certain ways using a certain skill in order to get a new weapon or upgrade. Accessing those could also be tied with quests of some sort and an interesting plot connected with the overarching story in one way or the other and so on. I'd like such crafting system. Primarily because it WOULDN'T BE A CRAFTING SYSTEM then.

That would be a crafting system actually. You would just be limiting the resources to craft items, which is actually a good idea. We do not need a mass production crafting system.

[nathanknaack]

Constantly going on missions just to craft a single upgrade or weapon would be overkill in my opinion. They should just limit resources. i.e. You go on a mission and find a single crafting component which will allow you to improve the barrel on that kick ass new rifle you just found, or create an extendended magazine for example. That is a good crafting system in my opinion.

Yeah, but I wouldn't want players to worry about using those resources improperly. In the situation you describe above, I'd be worried that I'd waste the rare crafting resource on the scope, then later in the game I discover how to make hypersonic flying power armor of flaming death... but it requires that rare resource. Aww man, I wasted all the resources on that scope!

If each craftable item was connected to a side mission, players would understand that it was optional, but also that they could explore all of those options without running out of parts.

[BlackGauntlet]

You guys... seriously?

Fine. Then I propose that we can modify our power armor as well... when all 6 are upgraded, they can combine into...



So, for frak's sakes, ditch the idea before it goes way out of hand.

[Fuzi0n]

Constantly going on missions just to craft a single upgrade or weapon would be overkill in my opinion. They should just limit resources. i.e. You go on a mission and find a single crafting component which will allow you to improve the barrel on that kick ass new rifle you just found, or create an extendended magazine for example. That is a good crafting system in my opinion.

Yeah, but I wouldn't want players to worry about using those resources improperly. In the situation you describe above, I'd be worried that I'd waste the rare crafting resource on the scope, then later in the game I discover how to make hypersonic flying power armor of flaming death... but it requires that rare resource. Aww man, I wasted all the resources on that scope!

If each craftable item was connected to a side mission, players would understand that it was optional, but also that they could explore all of those options without running out of parts.

I can understand this, but this could be solved by using different crafting components. The _special_ component to make the scope+2 should be different from the _special_ component to make the "hypersonic flying power armor of flaming death+5" or a scope+5 for example.

But I do also like your suggestion about "treasure hunting" missions so you can find very special and rare items... But Imo these should be limited and not repeatable.

You guys... seriously?

Fine. Then I propose that we can modify our power armor as well... when all 6 are upgraded, they can combine into...

So, for frak's sakes, ditch the idea before it goes way out of hand.

This idea has a right to exist just like any other. I will only ditch it if Brian says: "NO".

Crafting is really a lot of fun and rewarding if it is implemented correctly.

[nathanknaack]

I just never saw the point in a crafting system built for mass production. Am I really going to make 50 scopes during the game, or would doing a mission to make just one reusable scope be enough?

[Marty Czosnyka]

I love a good crafting system in any game, but i feel that most games these days run into same problem when they implement the systems. I like to call it "The Clutter Problem". The problem with most crafting systems is that after a while they tend to just turn people into deranaged packrats, their bags full of parts or materials. I can't say how many times I've played a game with crafting, and after a while of playing I'd notice my bag full of useless stuff. I'd find parts, materials, even stuff I could break down just taking up space in my pack. This clutter just gets progressively worse, and takes away from the feeling of creating stuff. I mean who really carries all the materials and parts around with them everywhere they go. I hope they avoid that in this game, I'd love to see an innovative spartan-esque crafting system. You're a group of rangers, and really shouldn't be carrying alot around with them, just survial gear and bare minimums. If they do implement crafting I'd like them to be sparatic missions where u have to salvage something, and either transport it to a storage area, or craft right there on the spot. So long as I don't have to always carry it around with me, or fall into the habit of just picking up every little bit of stuff, then I'd love to see that sort of crafting.

[MinscAndBoo]

As long as what I make has unique properties (triple shot - weapon, shoulder mount - Armour, booby trapped guns)

As long as I don't have to haul great amounts of parts around.

All roads lead to Rome. Just not with crafting.

I want to tailor the outcome of a quest, that would otherwise be closed. Crafting can do it.

We role play with words, why can't we with parts?

[paultakeda]

The only good crafting system is no crafting system.

I think it's hilarious that this What to Include is basically the opposite position of the What to Avoid thread. Shouldn't they be merged since both generate the same discussion? Or did you just want to create this one to strengthen the Aye vote?

[suz]

The only good crafting system is no crafting system.

I think it's hilarious that this What to Include is basically the opposite position of the What to Avoid thread. Shouldn't they be merged since both generate the same discussion? Or did you just want to create this one to strengthen the Aye vote?

Forum names are atrocious, half of the time I don't even remember I'm in the 'avoid' section. And strengthen the Aye vote is all well too

[Fuzi0n]

The only good crafting system is no crafting system.

Wrong! The only good crafting system is a.... "good crafting system". Fuzi0n logic +2

I think it's hilarious that this What to Include is basically the opposite position of the What to Avoid thread. Shouldn't they be merged since both generate the same discussion? Or did you just want to create this one to strengthen the Aye vote?

Well, the mods are cleaning up. This thread has been moved to the "Game Mechanics" forum... and the other one against crafting has been deleted I think (good riddance). ^^

EDIT: Actually wait, I think both threads have been merged. Good job mods.

[Inca]

My two cents:

I am really against having a "crafting" skill.
I also think there has to be some common sense on what you can build: making scopes, weapons, armor requires technology like machine shops, heat-treatment facilities-basically infrastructure.
HOWEVER
if you have high enough skill in explosives-you can make a boobytrap out of grenade and a wire
if you have high enough skill in electronics-you can make a metal detector out of wire and part of a radio
if you have high enough skill in medicine, you could make healing teas or anticeptic wraps out of plants and rags

that sort of thing-reach a suffcient rank in a technical skill and you can start making UNIQUE PRIMITIVE items,but the caviat is that they have to be near damn worthless in trade, because people do not trust some make-shift stuff.

There also could be some synergy from your team composition, like a doctor could mix some nitroglycerin for medical purposes, mechanic could make a casing out of pipe, electronic guy could make a timing and transmittion circuit, and explosive guy could put it all together. If you are missing some skills in your team some items will be out of reach.

There could be tonns of fun-non conventional items created, useful only to your team, like:
Strob-light, that chases away or blinds predators at night
Acid squirter to disolve dead bolts and locks in the doors
Urine distiller to reduce water consumption when crossing arid landscape
Blowguns with poison darts
Lures for predators and raiders (like an inflatable dummy with a tape player that fools attackers)
Rope ladders
Fishing rods
Glow in the dark paint to mark your way in catacombs without alerting others, or to mark your team during night assults, reducing fratricide.
Solar ovens to cook food without attracting enemies with smoke
Making fluits and drums to play music for profit, amusement or to distract guards
Making playing cards and chess pieces to gamble or to distruct guards
Making glue and glue traps
Dying clothing to make camuflage
Making baloons with a photo-camera attached to peak around the walls of enemy compounds
Electrifying door knobs to fry intruders without blowing up a building
Making fake documents, badges, money

well you get the idea

[ffordesoon]

boobytrap

I read that as "bootytrap". And then I laughed and laughed.

[Inca]

Actually, not a bad idea, some sort of pherromone spray or a aphrodisiac ointment (warning, you cannot crawl or fit into the power armor while under influence of the ointment)

[Interloper]

You guys... seriously?

Fine. Then I propose that we can modify our power armor as well... when all 6 are upgraded, they can combine into...

~Image~

So, for frak's sakes, ditch the idea before it goes way out of hand.

Is it wrong that I immediately thought that would be hilarious and wanted that to be in the game? Like they never tell you you can do it, but if you get the right upgrades and give the right amount of Snake Squeezins to the right hobo, he'll show you how to do it and then you just run around in a giant mech for the rest of the game. I'd love that if only as an easter egg.

[MinscAndBoo]

The amount of times I wanted a grappling hook to climb up that damn hill. You know the one. The level design in F03 *shakes fist* I Swear! was just infuriating.

SO, make my own grappling hook, stick it on the end of a gun and shoot it into the distance.. whats there not to like?